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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Crossdressers included in the definition of Transgender

79 replies

breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 12:29

I wanted to discuss this, as it this definistion has been proposed by both Scottish Trans Alliance and LGBT Youth Scotland in their their submissions to the UK Women and Equalities commission.

The Scottish Trans Alliance submission says:

"We recommend the terms transgender people and trans people be used as equivalent inclusive umbrella terms for anyone whose gender identity (including their gender expression) does not fully correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth. This is inclusive of:

-Trans women – people assigned male at birth but who identity as women
-Trans men – people assigned female at birth but who identify as men
-Non-binary people – people who do not identify solely as men or solely as women. Instead their gender identity is between or beyond the man/woman binary or they have no gender. (This is an umbrella term inclusive of other terms such as gender-fluid, gender-queer, non-gendered, agender.)

  • Cross-dressing people – people whose gender expression includes dressing in clothing which does not fully correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth but otherwise identify with their assigned sex.

data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19659.html

The LGBT Youth Scotland concurs with this definition.

Furthermore, James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance was the person responsible for changing the definition of 'woman' to include transwomen in Scottish Law. So legally, cross dressing males who "otherwise identify with their assigned sex" would be legally women in Scotland.

I am completely bewildered that cross dressing aspect has not been picked up by politicians/press.

I am particulary keen to hear from the woke crew. How the fuck can you defend this shit?

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breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 16:17

Page 4

Consideration of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Bill

The definition of ‘woman’ was amended at Stage 2 of the Bill’s consideration. This was based on evidence received by the Equalities and Human Rights Committee from the Scottish Trans Alliance. The position was supported by other stakeholders including Women 50:50 and the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

The amendment was put forward by Mary Fee MSP, a member of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee, with the support of the then Cabinet Secretary for Communities, Social Security and Equalities, Angela Constance MSP. The amendment had support from the whole Committee.

Going through the Bill’s consideration on this matter, sections are drawn out so that you can see how the definition came to be in the Act. During the Stage 1 and Stage 3 debate, the inclusive nature of the definition of woman achieved cross-party support, for the purposes of the Bill.

Oral evidence on the Bill

21 September 2017
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11101&mode=pdf

Talat Yaqoob:
“Women 50:50 supports the Equality Network’s response, which discusses the need to ensure that the pursuit of women on boards is inclusive of trans women. It is important to note that, when we talk about women being 51 per cent of the population, we are talking about those who self-identify and report as women, and I think that they should be included”. Col 14

28 September 2017
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11124&mode=pdf

Representatives from Universities Scotland, University and College Union Scotland, EIS and the Equality and Human Rights Commission said they would support the Bill being more inclusive of trans women.

5 October 2017
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11136&mode=pdf

James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance made the case for changing the definition of woman on the Bill

“The bill’s wording is positive in that it says that it is about women and it does not try to limit that in a negative way against trans people, but we need to make sure that it is not open to misinterpretation. We would like a bit of extra information to be included for the avoidance of doubt. We propose that the bill should say that the definition of “woman” includes a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who is living in the female gender and does not include a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who is not living in the female gender.

It is about how people live and identify, not about whether they have gone through the very cumbersome process of getting a gender recognition certificate. At the moment, the vast majority of trans women, who have lived as women for many years, do not have gender recognition certificates, because getting one is such a degrading and humiliating process”. Col 4

26 October 2017
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11154&i=101708&c=2032818#ScotParlOR

Mary Fee MSP asked the Cabinet Secretary for Communities, Social Security and Equalities, if the Scottish Government are considering the Scottish Trans Alliance’s suggestion on changing the definition of woman in the Bill.

Angela Constance:
“We are considering the suggestion, and we are certainly open to making improvements to how the bill is drafted. We made earlier improvements that enabled us to address the issue of people who are non-binary; a reason why we moved away from a gender representation objective of 50 per cent women and 50 per cent men was that there were some legal issues around it and it excluded non-binary people. Having a gender representation objective only about women is inclusive of people who are nonbinary.

On trans women, when we use the term “women”, we want that to include all persons who self-identify as women, irrespective of the sex that they were assigned at birth and, crucially, irrespective of whether they have a gender recognition certificate. We are exploring the matter within our legislative competence. The Scotland Act 2016 amends reservations under the original Scotland Act 1998. As I said earlier, the inroads that we have made into equalities legislative competence have been partial. There are some wrinkles that we need to try to iron out. However, our intention is to resolve that issue.

We are looking closely at the suggestion from the Scottish trans alliance and we want the matter to be sorted for the bill. If for some reason we cannot do that, we have a consultation around our plans for a gender recognition act. We are working hard to address the matter and we are working through a number of legal issues. We will keep the committee fully informed”. Col 10

Equalities and Human Rights Committee: Stage 1 Report on the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Bill (20 November 2017)
sp-bpr-en-prod-cdnep.azureedge.net/published/EHRiC/2017/11/20/Stage-1-report-on-the-Gender-Representation-on-Public-Boards--Scotland--Bill-3/EHRiCS052017R6Rev.pdf

  1. “Some specific concerns were raised about the language used in certain parts of the legislation. Suggestions were made by witnesses as to how this language could be made inclusive of trans people and remove loopholes in the appointment process. We support these suggestions, and ask the Scottish Government to work with the Scottish Trans Alliance to bring forward appropriate amendments at Stage 2”.

…

  1. “The bill defines a number of terms used in the legislation in section 2. Although no issues were raised with most of the definitions provided, we believe that further efforts could be made as to whether the term “women” is inclusive of trans people who identify as women, including those who do not hold a gender recognition certificate.

  2. We heard compelling arguments from witnesses about ways in which the language used in the Bill could be tweaked to ensure the inclusion of trans people. James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance said:

We would like a bit of extra information to be included [in the Bill] for the avoidance of doubt. We propose that the bill should say that the definition of “woman” included a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who is living in the female gender and does not include a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who is not living in the female gender.

Source: Official Report, 5 October 2017, col. 4

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breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 16:16

Page 3
The definition of gender reassignment under the Equality Act 2010 is broad. A person would not have to seek a legal change to their gender to be protected from unlawful discrimination.

Under the Gender Recognition Act 2004, transgender people can apply for legal recognition of their acquired gender. The Gender Recognition Panel, made up of legal and medical members, makes decisions on issuing gender recognition certificates. To issue a certificate, the Panel must be satisfied that the person applying:

• Has, or has had, gender dysphoria; and
• Has lived in the acquired gender for two years before the date of the application.

A trans woman who has legally changed her gender under the Gender Recognition Act 2004, is a woman.

The Equality Act 2010 provides a definition of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ at section 212(1):

• ‘man’ means a male of any age
• ‘woman’ means a female of any age

These definitions are generally understood in the biological sense.

For the purposes of the 2018 Act, a trans woman is a woman if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.

Other legislation

You ask whether this is the first time this definition has been used on the face of legislation, and whether a similar approach to the definition of ‘man’, in terms of gender reassignment, now applies within any legislation.

It is believed that this is the first time this definition has been used. However, it should be noted that the definition only applies to the 2018 Act.

There are few pieces of legislation which have a gender or sex specific element.

One is the Prohibition of Female Genital Mutilation (Scotland) Act 2005. This does not define women or girls, but refers to female genitalia in its definition of FGM.

The Offences (Aggravation by Prejudice) (Scotland) Act 2009 includes transgender identity as a category of hate crime. It defined transgender identity as:

(8)In this section, reference to transgender identity is reference to—
(a)transvestism, transsexualism, intersexuality or having, by virtue of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (c. 7), changed gender, or
(b)any other gender identity that is not standard male or female gender identity.

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breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 16:16

Page 2
Definition of woman in the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 (2018 Act)

As you note, the 2018 Act provides the following definition of ‘woman’

“woman” includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010) if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.

Your enquiry helpfully referred to the Explanatory Notes for the 2018 Act, which set out:

• “woman” includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010) if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female. This means that it is not necessary for a trans woman to have a Gender Recognition Certificate to be included as a woman for the purposes of the Act, provided they –
• have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment,
• are living as a woman, and
• are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.
• A trans man without a Gender Recognition Certificate would not be included as a woman for the purposes of the Act if they -
• are not living as a woman, or
• are proposing to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming male.

For further clarity, the Equality Act 2010 (s7) definition of gender reassignment is:

(1) A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2) A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3) In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

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breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 16:15

Ok got the doc from Theinconstantgardener . Posting it here.

If anyone is doubting James Morton's influence on Government policy, that will be soundly swept away by this document

==========

Page 1

Definition of woman

Many thanks for your enquiry. You have received a letter from a constituent raising concerns about the definition of ‘woman’ used in the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018.

You ask whether this is the first time this definition has been used on the face of legislation, and whether a similar approach to the definition of ‘man’, in terms of gender reassignment, now applies within any legislation.

You also ask whether this definition of ‘woman’ is now in common use in our parliamentary and government documents.

Summary

The definition of woman in the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 is only for the purposes of the Act. The definition of woman was amended during Stage 2 of the Bill to be inclusive of trans women who do not have a gender recognition certificate. The amendment achieved cross-party support.

The Equality Act 2010 defines ‘woman’ as ‘female of any age’, and ‘man’ as ‘male of any age’, ie, in the biological sense. The Gender Recognition Act 2004 allows people to legally change their gender. This means a person who was biologically male or female, can legally become a woman or a man.

Therefore, in law, a woman is either biologically female, or is someone who has legally changed their gender to be a woman.

The definition in the 2018 Act is specific to that Act, ie the aim of achieving 50% of gender representation on public boards. The definition in the Act is not in common use in parliamentary or government documents. Such a definition would need to be discussed and debated on a case by case basis depending on the policy area, as it was in this case.

Definition of woman in the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 (2018 Act)

As you note, the 2018 Act provides the following definition of ‘woman’

“woman” includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010) if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.

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AugustL · 21/10/2018 16:06

Its absolute lunacy

HollowTalk · 21/10/2018 15:40

It's probably the best way to understand what cognitive dissonance and gaslighting mean.

ChiaraRimini · 21/10/2018 15:39

That Stonewall definition can be applied to basically any human being so is totally useless if you take it at face value.

GatheringHerBrows · 21/10/2018 15:36

HollowTalk, you must be one of the ones that I've never heard of before.

This is so utterly ridiculous and regressive. I thought we were moving away from gender stereotypes, not towards enshrining them in law.

HollowTalk · 21/10/2018 15:34

I live on my own - sometimes I remember to put the bins out and sometimes I forget. What the fuck am I?

GatheringHerBrows · 21/10/2018 15:33

Actually, Stonewall's transgender umbrella picture says that anyone is transgender if they challenge traditional gender roles - so I could become transgender if I simply refuse to do the washing up 😬.

HollowTalk · 21/10/2018 15:31

Hang on a minute. So if Freddy likes to wear "ladies' clothing" and call himself Freda on a Saturday night, does that mean he is then a woman?

What happens if Frieda falls into a puddle and has to wear "men's clothing" instead - is Frieda then a man?

If Freddy goes into a changing room and comes out of it in women's clothing, has he changed sex in that moment? At what point? Who is he/she when naked?

I'm very confused.

Theinconstantgardener · 21/10/2018 15:29

breastfeedingclownfish
I have pmed you.

GatheringHerBrows · 21/10/2018 15:25

Gosh, I could probably be described as a masculine woman, therefore I'm transgender 🙄.

Needmoresleep · 21/10/2018 15:23

Essentially anyone who says they are a woman, and for whatever reason, can be one.

Safeguarding....

Invisible1234 · 21/10/2018 15:16

Even part-time cross dressers are covered and they don't have to call themselves Trans. This is Stonewall's definition:

Crossdressers included in the definition of Transgender
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 15:06

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

gendered intelligence screenshot is listed in the womansplace article

Submission to data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19659.pdf

from Scottish Transgender Alliance, Equality Network to the transgender Equality Inquiry

Crossdressers included in the definition of Transgender
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Theinconstantgardener · 21/10/2018 14:56

Ok I will try!

breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 14:55

Theinconstantgardener
Can you copy and paste the link from the email. Just select the text with your mouse, then rightclick your mouse and select copy. Then come here, right click again and selct paste. Or use the ctrl key + C for copy and ctrl key + V for paste from the keyboard.

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Theinconstantgardener · 21/10/2018 14:55

Oh and if anyone is still in any doubt about him and his ilke please read the 'we are still here'thread.

breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 14:52

Look at this (event has ended, but click on the 'view details). This is what the money is being spent on.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/equality-network-parliamentary-reception-registration-40869058454#

Sponsored by Patrick Harvie. Event for
Equality Network Parliamentary Reception
by Equality Network and Scottish Trans Alliance

You are invited to the Equality Network Parliamentary Reception to help us celebrate our 21st birthday, and find out more about our current Equal Recognition campaign for trans equality.

The reception is being sponsored by Patrick Harvie MSP (Scottish Green Party).

The event is being held in the Garden Lobby of the Scottish Parliament on Tuesday 27 February, 6pm to 8pm (registration opens from 5.30pm).

It should be an enjoyable evening, with wine and refreshments, photo opportunities, entertainment from Loud & Proud Choir, and of course, birthday cake!

Come along to help us raise awareness of the Equal Recognition campaign and to make the most of this opportunity to talk directly with MSPs and constituents about the case for change.

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Theinconstantgardener · 21/10/2018 14:49

breastfeedingclownfish

Can you post that SPICE briefing document please
ErrmBlush I tried but when I open it from the email it doesn't have a link ,it is a Google doc. Sorry -such a numpty with this sort of thing. Must be my lady brainGrin. Will have another go.

breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 14:45

And James is quite fucking blatant about it too. James want 'sex' removed as a protected characteristic and replaced with gender

Five years ago, Scotland was embroiled in a heated debate about the word “marriage” – with some people arguing that allowing same-sex marriages would destroy the meaning of the term marriage. A very similar debate is currently taking place in relation to the meaning of the word “woman”. In a misguided attempt to stop trans women being treated as women, a small number of people are trying to purge the overlapping definitions of sex and gender into a rigid claim that sex always equals chromosomes and gender is purely about oppressive stereotypes. This is simply not how Scottish, UK or European law regard the multifaceted concept of “sex”. Trans people exist and are lawfully able to use male or female facilities in accordance with their lived identity. Their inclusion is not dependent on the use of the term “gender"

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/james-morton-trans-rights-trump-sex-vs-gender-battle-1-4778963

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TinyRick · 21/10/2018 14:44

SunsetBeetch Don't shame my kinkshaming

breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 14:26

James Morton had a gender issue with being a woman and choose to present as a male. No problem with that.

James then proceeded to spent their career trying to destroy women' rights.

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breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 14:23

Thanks for your work on this Theinconstantgardener. Can you post that SPICe briefing document please?

James Morton is being funded by the Scottish Government to lobby the Scottish Government into producing legislation to vandalise the meaning of the word 'woman' and consequently to remove sex based protections for women - adult human females.

James Morton is a biological female.

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