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Original poster

Crossdressers included in the definition of Transgender

79 replies

breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 12:29

I wanted to discuss this, as it this definistion has been proposed by both Scottish Trans Alliance and LGBT Youth Scotland in their their submissions to the UK Women and Equalities commission.

The Scottish Trans Alliance submission says:

"We recommend the terms transgender people and trans people be used as equivalent inclusive umbrella terms for anyone whose gender identity (including their gender expression) does not fully correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth. This is inclusive of:

-Trans women – people assigned male at birth but who identity as women
-Trans men – people assigned female at birth but who identify as men
-Non-binary people – people who do not identify solely as men or solely as women. Instead their gender identity is between or beyond the man/woman binary or they have no gender. (This is an umbrella term inclusive of other terms such as gender-fluid, gender-queer, non-gendered, agender.)

  • Cross-dressing people – people whose gender expression includes dressing in clothing which does not fully correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth but otherwise identify with their assigned sex.

data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19659.html

The LGBT Youth Scotland concurs with this definition.

Furthermore, James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance was the person responsible for changing the definition of 'woman' to include transwomen in Scottish Law. So legally, cross dressing males who "otherwise identify with their assigned sex" would be legally women in Scotland.

I am completely bewildered that cross dressing aspect has not been picked up by politicians/press.

I am particulary keen to hear from the woke crew. How the fuck can you defend this shit?

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CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 22/10/2018 14:37

I can't believe the authorities haven't thought about this

They have, this is coming down from very high up and it's scary.

citiesofbismuth · 22/10/2018 14:36

If society is forced to accept that gender feelz replaces the biological reality of sex, then they'd better be prepared for the biological reality of age/maturity to be ignored as well so people who seek to sexually abuse children will start arguing that age is just a number and therefore childhood doesn't exist and so younger people (children) should be at liberty to engage in 'relationships' with adults.

You can see where this is going. Denying biological reality is dangerous. I can't believe the authorities haven't thought about this.

citiesofbismuth · 22/10/2018 14:27

Between this and the Brexit fiasco, we're facing the biggest societal fuck up since WWII.

Bowlofbabelfish · 22/10/2018 12:32

In the light of that - ANYTHING that damages safeguarding or reduces the age at which children can consent to medical treatment etc needs to be looked at with a rather cynical eye.

SuburbanRhonda · 22/10/2018 08:48

I wonder if Stonewall have asked any intersex people how they feel about being defined by Stonewall as transgender.

123bananas · 22/10/2018 08:44

National Crime Agency estimates 1 in 35 men have paedophile tendencies. That is 750,000 men with 250,000 of them attracted to children under 12.

That is 2.85%.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11690451/One-in-35-men-has-paedophile-tendencies-crime-agency-claims.html

However this bbc article quotes a Dr who says it could be as high as 5%.

Charliethefeminist · 21/10/2018 23:18

Does anyone else suspect a revenge / mean girls scenario here with bullied and ostracised people devoting lifetimes to getting their own back.

Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 23:15

Yes Perf, and James Morton, who features so many times in the above, is a transman.

James choose to present male because he didn't like being female , and then made a career trashing women's rights. He's almost there.

Jess Bradley, AimeeCh, etc have put a blue spanner in the works. These fuckers have all socialised. They know

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Charliethefeminist · 21/10/2018 23:08

That's morally corrupt

PositivelyPERF · 21/10/2018 23:04

Oh my holy fuck, breastfeedingclownfish, you really would think this was a Monty Python sketch! It really is a man’s world.

Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 23:04

twitter.com/onlyobjectivity/status/1053984232777961472?s=21

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Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 23:03

Even more scummery

www.disabledgo.com/blog/2016/05/isaac-takes-ehrc-chair-despite-concerns-over-dwp-outsourcing-work/#.W8xtB2hKi00

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Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 22:56

21 September 2017
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11101&mode=pdf

Talat Yaqoob:
“Women 50:50 supports the Equality Network’s response, which discusses the need to ensure that the pursuit of women on boards is inclusive of trans women. It is important to note that, when we talk about women being 51 per cent of the population, we are talking about those who self-identify and report as women, and I think that they should be included”. Col 14

It's important that these people are held to account for their actions. I'm saving these responses. Please do too. This need to be requoted back at them when they are exposed.

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Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 22:52

Angela Constance:
“We are considering the suggestion, and we are certainly open to making improvements to how the bill is drafted. We made earlier improvements that enabled us to address the issue of people who are non-binary; a reason why we moved away from a gender representation objective of 50 per cent women and 50 per cent men was that there were some legal issues around it and it excluded non-binary people. Having a gender representation objective only about women is inclusive of people who are nonbinary.

On trans women, when we use the term “women”, we want that to include all persons who self-identify as women, irrespective of the sex that they were assigned at birth and, crucially, irrespective of whether they have a gender recognition certificate. We are exploring the matter within our legislative competence. The Scotland Act 2016 amen

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Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 22:26

Noone has a problem with clothing Voice, just a problem with the lie that is the female cock.

Noone really cares whether a dick or vulva is under a kilt. Wear what you want.

As the man said: a mans a man for a' that

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Voice0fReason · 21/10/2018 22:09

I think we need to ensure that all clothing is now clearly labelled as men's or women's. I wouldn't want to accidentally wear something that is assigned male and find myself trans.
I wonder if a kilt is male or female?

Theswaggyotter · 21/10/2018 20:55

I wonder how that 5% of transwomen figure translates to the male population ie higher or lower? I suppose with such a small sample size it’s hard to extrapolate with any accuracy - all the more reason to continue to research in this area. Has that paper been published lang?

JillyArmeeen · 21/10/2018 19:58

Wow lang that study is really something.
That's 5% of those men. Scary stuff.
If 500,000 men want to self Id,(no idea where they pull that figure from but it's one ive seen bandied about)
25,000 of them could be doing it just for the purpose of normalising their paedophilia.
Not to mention all the other men who are not necessarily paedophiles but have other creepy rapey and voyeuristic intentions.
We're fucked in this goes through.

Verify2Terrify · 21/10/2018 19:15

Placemark to read later

DresdenChina · 21/10/2018 17:53

Has anyone actually asked Greyson Perry what he thinks about al of this? because apparently according to this he is now a 'woman'

Theinconstantgardener · 21/10/2018 17:20

Thanks for posting clownfish

Didn't anybody reading it think it was wrong, or bizarre, or offensive, or even just a little weird? How on earth did it become law?
These are questions we need to be asking our msps I feel jelly Over and over.

JellySlice · 21/10/2018 17:11

I couldn't make it to the end of that Scottish document. It's too upsetting, it's like reading Winston Smith's interrogation in 1984. How on earth did it become law? Didn't anybody reading it think it was wrong, or bizarre, or offensive, or even just a little weird?

JellySlice · 21/10/2018 17:06

@HollowTalk, yes, exactly. Google Pips Bunce.

LangCleg · 21/10/2018 16:48

Here is a study with something important to say about NHS gatekeeping:

www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/6B5F217162ABD9B3189F2EB82787034E/S1758320900012695a.pdf/gender_reassignment_5_years_of_referrals_in_oxfordshire.pdf

All individuals who request treatment for gender dysphoria in Oxfordshire are referred for psychiatric assessment and subsequent referral to GIDS. 80% of the 59 people (men and women) referred were referred onto GIDS subsequent to this assessment.

Reasons for non-referral:

not ready for transitioning (either determined by the individual or because the person was not currently living in the desired gender role), being homosexual but not having gender identity disorder, having an autism-spectrum disorder with a significant degree of impairment such that the real-life experience criterion was not met, and seeking gender reassignment to facilitate or normalise paedophilia. This latter small group described gender reassignment as a means by which to increase their intimate contact with children, which they viewed to be more socially acceptable in a female role

Of the 39 men in this study, 2 were refused a referral to GIDS because they wanted to normalise their paedophilia.

Gatekeeping works. Those two males would be able to obtain a GRC with no questions asked under self-ID.

Original poster
breastfeedingclownfish · 21/10/2018 16:18

Page 5

  1. It was suggested by the Scottish Trans Alliance that the objective is set for women, including trans women, with trans men and non-binary trans people included in the proportion outside of the objective, given the small percentage of trans people in society. We view this as a sensible solution to ensure inclusivity.

  2. The Cabinet Secretary said that the Scottish Government are “certainly open to making improvements to how the bill is drafted” in this regard, and are “looking closely at the suggestion from the Scottish Trans Alliance”

“Although the exact nature of these changes would be a matter for Stage 2, we would expect the Scottish Government to address the issues raised by the Scottish Trans Alliance”.

Scottish Government response to the Committee’s Stage 1 Report (27 November 2017)
www.scottish.parliament.uk/S5_Equal_Opps/Reports/Gender_Rep_St_1_Response.pdf

“The Scottish Government is actively considering how the Bill can be as inclusive as possible, including giving full consideration to the proposed amendment put forward by the Scottish Trans Alliance in their written evidence to the Committee”.

Stage 1 Debate on the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Bill (30 November 2017)
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11235&mode=pdf

The Cabinet Secretary, Angela Constance, said:

“I agree whole-heartedly with the committee’s position on the inclusion of trans women in the bill, and I reassure members that the Scottish Government is actively looking at how we can ensure that the bill is as inclusive as it can be. I will of course provide the committee with an update as soon as I am able to do so”. Col 45

The proposal to be more inclusive achieved cross-party support during the Stage 1 debate.

The Scottish Government set out its rational for Stage 2 amendments in a letter to the Equalities and Human Rights Committee (15 December 2017) www.scottish.parliament.uk/S5_Equal_Opps/General%20Documents/Cab_Sec.pdf

  1. “The inclusion of trans women in the Bill has been raised throughout stage 1 by stakeholders and by the Committee and the Scottish Government has consistently maintained its position that the Bill should be as inclusive of trans women as possible within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

  2. We have worked with Mary Fee MSP and the Scottish Trans Alliance on the issue and the amendment in her name ensures that the term ‘woman’ will include a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010) if, and only, if the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female”.

Stage 2 Consideration – 21 December 2017
www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11289&mode=pdf

Mary Fee MSP put forward the amendment to change the definition of ‘woman’ for the purposes of the Bill, which was agreed to by the Cabinet Secretary and the Committee.

Stage 3 Debate (30 January 2018)
www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11335&mode=pdf
Reference was made to the Stage 2 amendment to include trans women in the definition of the woman. Again, this amendment achieved cross party support. The Bill was passed with a vote of 88 For, 28 Against, and 0 Abstentions. Conservative and Unionist Party Members voted against the Bill. The Conservatives and Unionist Party felt they could not support the Bill for a range of reasons. Their main concern was that public appointments would no longer be made on merit. However, in their speeches they welcomed the inclusivity of the definition of ‘woman’.
Further information
Consultations on the Gender Recognition Act 2004
• The Scottish Government’s consultation is now closed (9 November 2017 to 1 March 2018. The organisational responses can now be viewed - www.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/law/17867/gender-recognition-review/review-of-gender-recognition-act-2004-list-of-orga .
there were 15,689 responses in total.
The Scottish Government said it would bring forward legislation in the next legislative programme (announced last week in the Programme for Government)
• The UK Government is current consulting (3 July – 19 October 2018). www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

The Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Bill – Bill documents and SPICe briefings on the Bill - www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/Bills/105197.aspx

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