The downsides of being a man

None of the men I have known who support the liberation of women would have the cheek to describe themselves as feminists. They just see themselves as decent blokes.

The patriarchy damages men but nothing like as much as it harms women.

Personally I think men (well all of us) would benefit from female socialization. It would make them better dads and partners. It would also mean they'd be willing to seek support for MH and other problems and help keep them out of the criminal justice system.

Men are socialised to dominate women and we are socialised to subordinate ourselves to them. Men are welcome to pursue aims that align with feminism, but should not be included in feminism because of the absolute certainty that they will take it over and as a result its mission will be compromised by the reproduction of patriarchal gender relations within it.

Hmm, I'm not sure where you're going with this op. I'm not being disingenuous. Do you mean we should attempt to 'involve' men? Because there are all sorts of organisations trying to help men liberate themselves from the man box.

When you're not being routinely killed, abused or disregarded it's harder to see what you might gain from changing things. And the first thing they'd have to do is acknowledge that they're reaping the rewards of and are complicit in our oppression, an idea which most of them resist (ie NAMALT).

There are far fewer obstacles in their way and still they fail to grasp the nettle so I think we can conclude that they're largely not interested.

I find CM's cool girl feminism irritating.

Trying to find out more about those blokes (in the photo) who were arrested in Washington for lining up in the street and talking about accountability for men in the process of healing the wounds of patriarchy and toxic masculinity (btw googling 'men arrested washington + a combination of relevant words turns up a revolving litany of the usual male violence so I don't know any more about it). (I rolled my eyes about the HERO!!! thing but their statement was good.) They don't need spoon-feeding, they get it. Anyone know more about them? I'd post the video but I'm tentative at best with Twitter and if/how you share tweets outside of Twitter iyswim.

I know. I think the party line from the man-friendly inclusive school of feminism is that it's not a zero sum game and men have nothing to lose from women's liberation.

But men on the whole aren't thick enough to fall for that. Of course loss of privilege is felt as a loss. Feminism would help men in a lot of ways, but they would have to decide that the sacrifice was worth it. Pretending there wouldn't be a sacrifice is not going to work.

I know it's not fashionable to say so, but although patriarchy affects men negatively in some ways, I think the really obvious reason that men as a class are so resistant to feminism is that they like male privilege and the benefits of patriarchy for men probably outweigh the downsides.

you think feminists aren't aiming to dismantle patriarchy Snowfluke?

There’s really nothing I can add to DancelikeEmmaGoldman’s excellent comment.

Radical feminists aim to liberate women and girls by dismantling the political and power structure which systemically oppresses women aka the patriarchy.

The patriarchy is structural, not individual. While it operates to the benefit of men as a class, most, if not all men, experience patriarchy, consciously or not, as detrimental to their psychological and emotional life.

The patriarchy enforces gender stereotypes as a means of ensuring women experience life-long injustice. But men suffer as well from expectations of masculinity they can never meet.

Dismantling the patriarchy would be to the benefit of humans in general. Men have a much better shot at it than women, because it’s their system. So you know blokes, have at it.

But until they’re a good way forward in that little task, I’m not interested in redefining feminism to be more about men.