How can people seriously believe....

I've said it previously but friends on FB who have a scientific background and/or usually reject any research that isn't peer reviewed/ repeated have quite happily got on board with an one off study, with a small non controlled pool of participants.

Seems all logic goes out the window on this especially when it fits with their narrative.

(Leaving aside the nonsensical mind-fuck that some trans individuals say they do not have dysphoria.)

Really this is the root of my problem with Self ID not being a medical issue. If you believe you are the opposite gender to your natal sex you have disphoria, disphoria is a mental health issue.

There shouldn’t be any stigma attached to experiencing or living with a mental health issue, and you shouldn’t be discriminated against because of your mental health issue, but denying you have a mental health issue is worryingly unhealthy (and more evidence that you have a mental health issue!)

Thank you. I will do that😊

@ChangetheLabels there is a “Petitions” topic - if you report your post to @MNHQ they’ll move it for you. You might also want to try the Ethical Living board.

Neurotrash is my new favourite word!

I found this very interesting when it popped up in my fb feed this week.

parentingsciencegang.org.uk/web-chats/how-different-are-womens-and-mens-brains/

I'd like to know more about her research, however it's interesting that she refers some questions back to Cordelia Fine's Testosterone Rex.

My dog can tell men from women at 50 yards, and lets men know that she fucking hates them. Most 'rescue' dogs are like that. Since women are the same species as men, it's even more important that we're able to tell which of us are men and which are women.

I'm constantly amazed at how lacking in self-awareness some men seem to be. They put on a dress and heels and think everyone else in the world sees them as women :(

I think there is some evidence that gender dysphoria has a biological basis and that the brains of some transgender people may share some neurological characteristics with some women. I think this is interesting from a scientific point of view.

But. Big but. The defining characteristics of sex are not the brain but the chromosomes and sexual organs. Not the brain, because even if you could unequivocally distinguish between male and female brains (which you can't) this does not change the fact that your sex - your sexual organs and sex chromosomes - by definition determine your sex. So therefore, you cannot change sex, however dysphoric you are. Which is a shame for those with the condition, but is not a basis for forcing women to give up their sex-based rights.

(Leaving aside the nonsensical mind-fuck that some trans individuals say they do not have dysphoria.)

People will believe anything if they try hard enough.

History is full of examples of people believing rubbish because they suspended all their rational faculties.

They believed older women in the village could get on their broomsticks and fly.

They believed they would have sex with their pet cats.

They believed that when Stalin told them that communists who had fought with Lenin for the overthrow of the tsar were traitors, those communists were traitors.

They believed that something they had strongly believed five years ago, was rubbish because Comrade Stalin told them it was rubbish.

They believed that it was year zero.

They believed that when Jews in their city were rounded up and put on trains, they were just being taken away to work.

They believed that the gulags were actually really nice places to go, sort of like a rehabilitation centre, doubtless filled with massage parlours where you could go after a healthy hour of breaking up stones (mind you that last one was the Goldsmith's LGBT society, so perhaps they're not representative of most people, however credulous).

In short, people will believe anything they feel there's a social benefit to believing. We are living through one of those frightening periods in history, where adherence to a belief in something everyone knows is a lie, is being demanded by a tiny section of the population who are determined to ensure that our authorities and institutions also demand it, so that people will be too afraid to publicly question it. Because the belief is utterly ludicrous, we don't really believe that it will fly, but it is no more ludicrous than all those other beliefs that flew for a time.

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength
Transwomen are women

There is no definition (a definition must be noncircular and objectifyable) of ‚woman‘ ‚female‘ and ‚trans‘ that would make TWAW true.

randommouse woman is an adult human female. And female in mammals is the category whose body has the principle ability to produce ova. Intersex conditions are pathologies and in fact also fall into male and female (the presence of the SYR gene, which is on the Y chromosome makes the orgsnism male, no matter how many X chromosomes there are. Intersex conditions are infertile exceptions that proof the rule).

I found this a really useful thread when I was trying to wrap my head around the science.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212295-Biology

What I took away from it was that biology as we know it is still not "outdated" - men are men, women are women, XX and XY are still reliable indicators of your biological sex, the world is still round. But that there are some arguments around the "brain science" which have been co-opted and blown out of all proportion - and that the pro-trans "TWAW" side of the debate never acknowledge that it's virtually impossible to account for the effects of socialisation (AKA 'ladybrain') in order to isolate any outcomes...

Stefoknee also got kicked out of a trans org they used to work for for being so incredibly self-centered that even the other identifarians couldn't stand working with them. Someone hopefully has a link - basically they made every single discussion and issue all about themselves to the point where nobody else in the group could tolerate it. And then the Canadian media decided they were a brilliant example of the struggle for trans justice, and a Canadian MP involved herself with them, very publicly.

It's always fascinated me how consistently the "allies" pick absolutely terrible people to represent the trans community on an official level, and it's not as some sort of expose and shame tactic - they honestly seem to think that people like Stefoknee or the violent criminal who Lord Patel was enamoured with who trained police on trans issues (the one who tried to rape a shop assistant) are tragic figures in need of protection and deserving of admiration.

Surely there must be some transwomen who aren't blatantly Cluster B who they could promote instead, but nope, they pick the blatant nutters every time.

Let's face it, the whole thing is (to borrow a favourite phrase from the TRAs) LITERAL madness.

Men and women cannot change sex.
Women don't have penises.

But.....since the advent of Trump we live in a post-truth world. And having watched the tsunami of lies and flat denial of reality that's come pouring out of the White House since his arrival, I honestly believe that people around the world have begun to feel that they can spout any old crap with total impunity.

So they do. It's bloody terrifying, but that goes for so-called 'educated' people too. It's like all the flat-earthers have been keeping their heads down, knowing they couldn't say anything because they'd be dismissed out of hand as bonkers, but they've now miraculously been given some secret signal that it's fine to reveal themselves. So the 'science proves it! TWAW!' is pouring out with a vengeance.

Well, I know who I'd rather stand with, and it sure isn't anyone who quotes science to claim that men can change sex.

Are there any highly respected scientists, doctors, biologists etc who can define what is a woman and what is a man? Until someone with enough authority does with the scientific proof to back it up, then tra's will get away with saying that twaw. When I discuss argue with people over this, this is my main stumbling block.

That's really interesting. Surely no one would dispute that person needs medical help and would not be given the rights of children because they believe to be one.
Cats and dogs is another common role for people to identify as.

agirlhasnoname

I believe stefonknee was consulted by the Canadian government with respect to the law around transgender people

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-six-year-old-girl-uses-childs-play-to-a6775051.html

Just through general chit chat among colleagues belief in ladybrain is as deeply routed as knowledge that the world is round - it's actual science, plus they can evidence it daily. Except the evidence is socialisation and yes, no one can believe socialisation can go that far nor do they want to think they're complicit nor that it's that bloody simple. Many of them are divorced and certainly the way traditional gender roles and attitudes are between the sexes was a part of the issue.

Even a few years ago I believed it, but this was also due to the extreme male brain asd theory (I work in this area).

They also can't square how sexist it is.

Aaaarghhhhffs you need to identify as your friends teenage daughter and demand he pay for your living expenses.

Sorry to gatecrash but I've been wondering that too about identifying as a child. There are people who do, they are called 'littles.' They really feel when they are in their little state that they have made an age regression. So maybe soon we will have adults in nursery's and sports clubs? I've been trying to think about the difference but after a few days arguing with myself I think it's pretty much the same 

If it was a worker rather than the owner who stuck that on the till I wonder how their boss feels about their attempt to actively discourage customers from buying anything.

Though to be fair if it was my cafe I'd be more worried about accidentally killing customers via food poisoning. Has that counter ever been wiped down?

But people feel that identifying as the opposite sex is somehow different to identifying as an animal or a child.... because they have a belief in Ladybrain. I kind of admire the logical integrity of giraffe guy! At least he's being consistent. Ridiculous. But consistent.

The belief in Ladybrain is potentially the crux? It's difficult for some people to accept how powerful socialisation can be. I think it makes people uncomfortable that they are a product of socialisation and not intrinsically, authentically themselves. Maybe?

It’s the lack of clear thinking that scares me most. Scares me. Like Professor Biggs said: ‘this is the generation we have educated.’ users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/FreeSpeechOxford.pdf