Think I've lost a friendship because of this

Personally, I don't think examples of bikers or straight men infiltrating gay groups work, simply because men on average will never understand the disadvantage and fear women experience in comparable situations, or the fact that it's a life-long reality for us.
I think the wokebros understand quicker when you educate them on the difference between early vs late transitioning, HSTS vs AGP types, because they are hung up on this notion that they are defending someone who is vulnerable.
Send him Kay Brown's essay The Invisible Transsexual www.transkids.us/invisible.html . Mention Karen White and Ian Huntley. These two are in prison. If they weren't, would he be happy for them to have access to women's spaces? I don't think he realises the range of people he is defending. Most woke blokes don't - or they don't care, in which case they can fuck off, frankly.

You could point out that if he isn't willing to have sex with transmen he's a hopeless transphobe. Because lesbians are being told to have PIV sex with men who identify as women or be ostracized from LGBT+ circles.

In universities, and among the young generally, this is a real threat. Turning down a transwoman can be social death.

Gay men are not subject to the same pressure from transmen. Male versus female socialization. Perhaps if they were it would be a game changer.

I've seen older lesbians, particularly Americans, grieving and furious about the lack of empathy and sheer callousness of the response of gay men to their plight.

They remember the AIDS years, when lesbians selflessly nursed dying men while the world turned its back. Now, when lesbians need their support, gay men are nowhere to be found.

Jonny Best Articles may be of interest, he was the director of Queer Up North:

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/calling-all-gay-men-women-need-you-to-speak-up-please-read-this-9df277ecb59e

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

Also worth encouraging people to read & consider the petition to Stonewall that Jonny Best and others started, especially the comments:

its still open and running!
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Pamspeople hmm, that's a very interesting idea. Despite the cozy idea that gay fellas love gals, they're not super keen on women in cruisy spaces. But surely trans folk are okay considering how sad it makes them to be excluded. And I'm what I say I am, 'get over it' etc so...

He needs an analogy he can understand. Ask him if he'd go to a biker bar frequented by Hells Angels. If not, why not?

Then tell him, for a woman, everywhere is a bit like that biker bar. You've no idea whether those bikers are going to be lovely people or punch you in the face.

Or ask him how he'd feel about using a communal shower in a male prison where he's no idea whether there is a threat to his safety or where it might come from.

Then tell him that, for women, everywhere is a bit like that communal shower in a male prison.

He might get it then. Maybe.

Another analogy is asking a gay man if it's OK for any man to identify himself as gay, despite never having had sex with a man, put on a pink cravat and a camp walk to express his gaybess, and attend any space reserved as a safe space for gay men. And to know that if he felt uncomfortable about that, or expressed unease, he would be the one asked to leave, not the new member if the group who seems to be taking to piss.

I love that thought experiment, that's absolutely great! I'm def going to use that, thank you.

OP I'm sorry you've had this horrible experience, this guy seems really lacking in empathy. I've lost a friend over this too, not so unpleasantly but it still hurts. But as someone else said, I've made some new connections and feel great to be sticking to what is truly important to me.

You're not alone!

Op have a look at www.objectnow.org/ and see how you feel about the five key issues. OBJECT work with lots of other radfem groups. Pm me if you have any questions.

From Twitter (unknown author)

wetwang so sorry to hear what you're going through with your sister. My sister was married to an emotionally abusive man for many years and it ruined our relationship. Thankfully she is free of him now, but it has taken us years to really rebuild.
All you can do is step back, take care of yourself and be there for her when the shit hits the fan.

Part of this problem is privileged people patting themselves on the back. 'Look at me, being cool with it all!'

This is the main attitude I have come across too. My comment following such a declaration is usually "you don't get to decide what other women are comfortable with" (ie sharing changing rooms or toilets with males).

I'm sorry to hear this. its really hard and I've had a couple of responses that were deeply shocking, you are not alone.

I can't really disclose much of what happended, but I've had a man tell me "woman adult human female" is an attack on transpeople. yeah, crazy huh, I have to watch what context I refer to myself in now, or I might be attacking someone.

lets be clear. You don't want to change infront of someone of the opposite sex. Neither do I and that's your right. You have a right to privacy and dignity.

deepwatersolo you could be right. He's into porn and really vile stuff, I don't know how my sister copes.

Funny how men understand fear of the same sex when it comes to the cliche of them showering in prison or being locked in a cell with a cellmate twice their size.

Many of them understand unease if asked to walk through a large group of men of a different colour from them.

Those fears are founded on homophobia and racism but no one ever seems to call them out on it. It's okay for them to feel uneasy even when it's not rational or backed up by evidence but women just need to suck it up despite our fears being rational and based on experience and evidence and the fact that our encounters won't be same sex.

Men understand entirely the power dynamic that comes with size and the protection that that size provides those who are larger. It's just laziness of thinking that stops them understanding that that power dynamic will nearly always work in favour of transwomen over women and that alone can be intimidating. Men may use penises to rape but they use strength to intimidate, harrass and beat and transwomen retain the benefit of size.

WetWang maybe your sister is a transwidow in waiting, which is why her husband took it so personally...

I was of your friend‘s opinion and the only reason I have come around is respecting that other women have voiced objections and feel their boundaries are violated and also considering women from other cultural backgrounds who don‘t seem to be given any say in this.
What you can do is cite the few available scientific data on the matter that suggest that male criminal including male violent criminal patterns persist in female to male post-OP male transsexuals. I think it is, therefore, fair to exclude them from female spaces unless and until solid scientific data show they do not show male pattern violence.
I‘d tell your friend this, if I were you, and else agree to disagree. I believe that friendships can continue even in the face of strong disagreement on important policy issues.

I tried to have a conversation with my sister in private,( her husband is vile and she does as he tells her) I was explaining what was happening and was she interested in filling in the GRC form. She started shouting at me and her husband came rushing in and asked what was going on so she told him. He got right in my face and started shouting at me to the point that I thought he was going to hit me. I stepped back and my sister walked over and slapped me and said I should be ashamed. I told them to leave my home and they went. All that time my husband said nothing. My sister has been bullied by her husband for over 30 years. I probable won't see my sister again (we used to be really close) but the bit that hurts me the most was my husband's reaction

Vagina-free folk need to roll their sleeves up and shovel some emotional shit. :)

EllariaSand I appreciate it. :)

Definitely feel you there, amandadecabernet

EllariaSand just my pov but I'm over men having to have daughters or whatever to understand the concerns of others. He isn't trans but has no problem letting his heart bleed for the poor transfolk.

'I am quite sure this would change if they had a little girl.' You don't magic up compassion by fathering kids, my abusive dad being a classic example. He was super-protective of the girls in the family because he said he knew what was on the minds of young men (eurgh, creepy) and all was revealed years later when I found out he'd been sexually abusing loads of the girls he said he wanted to protect.

Respecting boundaries is a choice you make if you respect other people. The troubling thing about being a feminist is that once the scales fall from your eyes you realise how many men prioritise even their most trivial, oblique and theoretical desires ('Women with penises must be allowed in women's prisons because I say so!') over your consent.

He's still locked in the mindset of automatically backing the minority in all cases. Once he engages brain he'll come around. In time. Maybe.

As PP have said, he's a MAN deciding what WOMEN should be comfortable with, when it's never going to affect him. I'm afraid that's what I'd say to him, and I'd write off the friendship.

It's possible that gay guys with no children may not be best placed to understand girls' and women's perspectives on this issue, as I've also found from personal experience. I have heard from such sources that women who want sex-segregated spaces are merely "unable to see anything from other people's perspectives". I find this pretty funny, as I wonder if the individual who made this assertion has ever in his life read a book written by a woman or watched a series/film made by women, for example. He's possibly not au fait with "double consciousness".

Like you, OP, I was amazed how much sleep I lost over the fact that my (straight, male) best friend couldn't understand why women might be uncomfortable with a penis in our changing room WITHOUT OUR CONSENT (although he himself would not feel comfortable having sex with a trans woman, post-op or otherwise; but y'know, he's a man, so...).

It's most odd to realise that this hypothetical question can cast such a shadow over a relationship. There's something so disconcerting about knowing that a loved one doesn't care enough to support your "no"; I am quite sure this would change if they had a little girl. I reckon this lack of respect for women's boundaries and inability to care about our fears and concerns will show up in other ways if brushed under the carpet. I've curbed my emotional investment in the aforementioned friendship and given myself some distance to grieve the loss I feel over it. This seems overdramatic, but it feels impossible to do otherwise. Of course I still care about the friend in question, but there are now limits on my part, as I know that when the chips are down, he's not completely in my corner.
If you come up with a better way to heal your own friendship without compromising yourself, please do let mumsnet know, ShimmyShimmmyYa!