Passing privilege

I got punched in the face for not responding to a man sexually harassing me on the street in broad daylight. I put my head down didn't look and walked on, he stared screaming at me. I shouted back to leave me alone. bam. punched in the face, went straight down on the pavement, no one came to help me. Police never got him. My face was a huge swollen mess on one side. I thought I was going to die.

I do not challenge.

Oh BTW wanna know what I was wearing, jeans and an old top and flats. Because of course MRA reading will believe I insighted the violence upon myself.

The only thing that is going on here is men demanding access to women safe spaces.

The problem of course, is that when you get off the bus and and a asks you for the time, you won't know if he's about to steal your watch or just wants to know how soon his bus will be arriving.

I don’t know your life, but I don’t travel on the bus when naked or with my knickers around my ankles.

Women are more likely to change their behaviour than challenge surely?

I’d probably put my head down, hurry myself into a cubicle or leave rather than be a) be made to feel uncomfortable by a man in the changing room or b) be made to feel uncomfortable by being put in the position where I feel I need to ask if you are in the right place.

So if you think it’s likely someone could challenge you, be uncomfortable by your presence then I’d suggest being more considerate and showing some empathy. Because this isn’t actually all about you.

ScottChegg hasn't come back to answer questions I see.

Here's another reason his comparison doesn't stack up: I am not more likely to be mugged by a black person than a white person. I am much more likely to be raped or sexually asaulted or sexually harassed or threatened or intimidated by a man, than by a woman.

ScottChegg, your argument is an argument for unisex spaces. Why not just have unisex spaces altogether? Let's have seven year old pre-pubescent girls and fifteen year old developing teenagers showering next to naked adult men. Why not? After all, by your logic, not all men are rapists or voyeurs or perverts or creeps, so it would be wrong to keep them all out of the changing room, right? Why not let them all in?

We know why not.

1. Because where men are allowed to be in close proximity to women in an intimate setting, some of them just can't resist harassing or assaulting us
2. Because even if the men in them aren't the rapey harassy type, it is generally accepted in our culture, that both women and men want and need privacy from each other and it it is an attack on our dignity, to force us to share unisex spaces in an intimate setting. The NHS tried it on hospital wards and it was universally hated.

No problem ohello!

Sorry for the rant, I was suddenly exasperated by all the racist false equivalences swilling around. ScottChegg I'd be interested to know what you made of it.

If somene passes it makes no difference either way whether they have a GRC, because if nobody can tell that they're not the sex the space was intended for why would anyone question them? This is and always has been about forcing open those spaces to those who are very clearly and visibly male.

This. The whole thing is a red herring because a) hardly any of them pass and b) for the tiny number that do, there's no problem.

The problem of course, is that when you get off the bus and and a asks you for the time, you won't know if he's about to steal your watch or just wants to know how soon his bus will be arriving.

If this was the issue we would be looking at removing all sex or gender segregated spaces and having everything be unisex, not making what have been sex segregated into gender-ID segregated.

The question - if you are going to use the race analogy - isn't why transwomen shouldn't be allowed in womens spaces, it's why all men shouldn't. Which is answered by the other posts above about what it would be like for you if you were constantly targetted by a physically stronger more powerful class of humans and backed up by research that shows that women lose out when put into mixed-sex situations where they are vulnerable.

And let's add that these aggressive, larger, more physically, socially and institutionally powerful people not only make up 98% of sexual assaults on men but also that some of the men raped by them suddenly find there's a whole new human growing inside them, and depending on laws where they live, or their and their family's beliefs, they may be forced to carry this being inside them for nine months, when they will go through a painful and potentially dangerous birth.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain I'm going to save your comment if you don't mind? Possibly to share again with attribution? It explains the problem so well from a woman's perspective.

SO many brilliant and insightful mumsnetters here!

The problem of course, is that if you come out of the shower and there's someone sitting there with his penis hanging out, you won't know if he's a brave inspirational transwoman, or a dirty old perv who has come in to flash.

I'm guessing that a decent personwithapenis would practically never be doing that, so it's a very safe assumption that the individual is a total perv, there with the specific purpose to intimidate and terrorize. I like the suggestion someone else made, to scream. Long and loud. Just scream and scream and scream. What are they going to do -- arrest me for experiencing an emotion? Outlaw emotions? Fat chance buddy, I will just scream even louder.

No one has yet explained how it's possible for women to tell the difference. When the question is raised, I'm given to understand that I shouldn't be asking it. The implication seems to be that it just doesn't matter that women and girls will be put in this position and we're making an awful fuss for no reason. It's just a penis, get over it. Or alternatively suck it , bigot.

exactly WeWantJustice. Women do not count at all, we're just here to be the fetish prop for the amusement of the people who really matter.

WeWantJustice, you put all that very well.

It's not unlike saying Black people can't be in our spaces because they're 'over represented at every stage of the criminal justice system' as previously evidenced in government statistics

Ok ScottCheggJnr (I'm assuming you're a man) lets do a thought experiment. Let's imagine there's another category of human. They're substantially bigger and stronger than men and immediately distinguishable from you due to an exaggerated brow ridge, pointy shoulders and other physical indications specific to them. They are noticeably more aggressive than men and commit the vast majority of violent crime, much of it, especially sex offences, against men. The majority are sexually interested in men and a substantial minority make it clear that because of this they think of men as a kind of prey. They are politically powerful, better paid than men and pride themselves on being as different from you as possible.

Since you were about 10 years old, you have been regularly sexually harassed and humiliated by these people: at school, at work, on public transport, on the streets. You don't argue back because they're often aggressive, you know they're a lot stronger than you, and because the whole point is that they are getting off on exerting control over you and you are keen to avoid escalating their aggression. You and most men you know have been seriously sexually assaulted by at least one of them on at least one occasion, and you have been in many, many situations where you have been frightened this was going to happen. When you turn on the news, you see reports about men being raped or murdered by them, and when you watch a film or tv drama there's typically an obligatory rape scene in which a man is their victim. You know that many of them enjoy watching porn in which men are violently sexually degraded and you are aware that some of them get off on invading men's privacy by watching or filming you in toilets and changing rooms. You also know that most institutions are run by these people and that if you are harmed by one of them you will have trouble getting anyone to believe or support you. Of course, many of them are perfectly safe and reasonable but there is no way for you to tell who is a risk to you and who isn't.

Do you want these hypothetical people sharing your hospital ward or cell in prison? And can you see why women are concerned about allowing male people in our spaces even though we are completely unfussed about sharing with women who have a different skin colour, cultural background or sexual orientation than ourselves?

If somene passes it makes no difference either way whether they have a GRC, because if nobody can tell that they're not the sex the space was intended for why would anyone question them? This is and always has been about forcing open those spaces to those who are very clearly and visibly male.

No one has yet explained how it's possible for women to tell the difference.

And it doesn't matter, because that moment of sheer panic that a woman or girl feels upon seeing a penis in a space where no penises should be will happen regardless of any certificate issued to the penis owner, and women and girls should not be having to feel that fear in our sex segregated spaces.

Individuals who're dysphoric generally don't want randoms looking at their genitalia, so you have to ask yourself who laws that state that a male individual should be allowed to have their penis visible in a women's space are intended to benefit. The answer is illuminating.

In most countries you need an identity card.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

Identity cards state sex.

@Scott it is different because is objectively . With someone who believes they are entitled to a different sex space, you are dealing with someone who expects you to indulge their delusion at a cost to women/girls.

That's not a bad idea, Havalina. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are uncomfortable being naked around strangers of either sex.

Could we not nullify this issue by doing away with any concept of communal nudity? I think the concept of having to communally shower at school, was a greater incursion into my boundaries than having to share fully private individual facilities with anyone else.

Just have fully private unisex facilities.

The problem of course, is that when you get off the bus and and a asks you for the time, you won't know if he's about to steal your watch or just wants to know how soon his bus will be arriving.

This is what I can't get my head around - how it's different - and it's really obfuscating my view on the matter.

I disagree with the OP, I too think that those who have most to gain are not transexuals who pass reasonably well, but those men who don't pass and have no intention of passing - the very fact that they present with a beard and a suit, is a deliberate show of power: You must pretend that you think I'm a woman, even though I am clearly and demonstrably a man and I am enjoying how abject your submission is when you go along with my taking the piss out of you.

The problem of course, is that if you come out of the shower and there's someone sitting there with his penis hanging out, you won't know if he's a brave inspirational transwoman, or a dirty old perv who has come in to flash.

No one has yet explained how it's possible for women to tell the difference. When the question is raised, I'm given to understand that I shouldn't be asking it. The implication seems to be that it just doesn't matter that women and girls will be put in this position and we're making an awful fuss for no reason. It's just a penis, get over it. Or alternatively suck it , bigot.

I probably lean towards being against self-ID, mainly because it feels wrong for me as a man to contest something which so many women feel strongly against and which won't affect me. I also think that the situation need a careful analysis as could be difficult to reverse once granted.

However, it still seems a bit unfair in some ways to condemn the majority for the actions of a deviant minority. It's not unlike saying Black people can't be in our spaces because they're 'over represented at every stage of the criminal justice system' as previously evidenced in government statistics.

I don't see a way right now that we can cater for both sides unfortunately - i.e. shield women from harm whilst catering for those genuinely suffering from dysmorphia who don't want to change with the rugby team or use a 'trans' facility which inadvertently outs them.

I get challenged from time to time, it's not pleasant but I'd rather someone said something than just left. It's normally "are you in the right place" or "this is the ladies" and I'm normally very neutral in my response, something like "yes" or "I know", turn to face the person and wait for it to click that I'm female.
Genuine question: is this the right approach? Any suggestions?

I agree Melanippe. No need to challenge the person. I will however find the management and explain I can't share a mixed sex space so could they point out the facilities I can use please.

I've never yet come across a trans woman who passes, although I am aware that I probably have a heightened sense of awareness of these things for various good reasons. What I have seen is women simply leaving the space when a trans woman enters. There's no fuss, no shouting, no one says anything, they just walk away. Probably safest given the violent rhetoric prominent TRAs espouse.

The transwomen who most vocally support Self ID are the ones who haven't a hope of getting a GRC. Non dysphoric AGP men who like to present as women are not who the GRA was aimed at.

The transwomen I've seen who don't support self ID tend to be transexuals who pass well.

Understandable. Those who have been through the process will think its unfair the next generation won't have to.