Passing privilege

Women were given discrete spaces for their safety. To protect them from men. It’s positive segregation.

Women often act with greater authenticity away from men. We don’t take measures to stay safe: to be aware; to take up less space. I appreciate that this is difficult to understand when the whole world of your women’s toilet.

What about them? They don’t suffer in this scenario. They might feel a bit put out. They might not quite have the world the way they want it - welcome to the female experience!

Should a number of women be sexually assaulted at the expense of transwomen going to the toilet they want to go to?

But what about the non-violent majority? Are they to be condemned for the actions of a few? All the discussion seems to be around the unhinged few (although of course I appreciate that they're the ones causing the problems).

Male violence is the one thing that women are unanimously raised to be afraid of.

It comes from male socialisation coupled with physical strength and attributes. No man or boy escapes this. It is ubiquitous and systemic.

Women were previously, generally, considerate of transsexuals as one aspect of the threat was removed and there were evidently concerted efforts from those people to shake off their sex.

Under the new GRA, men who maintain their genitals, their strength, their Male-pattern entitlement and violence can enter spaces where women are vulnerable. Indeed, those with a sexually violent or predatory agenda will (and have and are) exploit this to their own end. To level the assumption that no one would do that under-estimates these men. They are entitled. They are loud. They are aggressive in getting what they want. And it is happening now.

Yup. They won’t care if we stop using the changing facilities. That’s a win.

Absolute Handlebar, and we’ll change our behaviour to avoid putting ourselves in these situations.

The biggest effect of the GRA in this respect is that woman won’t challenge. They’re counting on it.

It’s to shut us up as much as anything else.

Anyway, getting a bit convoluted now. My original question was why some protected characteristics can be discounted in the face of greater tendency towards violence whilst others seemingly can't.

Different races do not commit crimes at different rates once you control for factors such as poverty.

But I'd wager most people don't care about the underlying factors in the heat of the moment, just whether the stranger in front of them is statistically more or less likely to harm them than the next.

Also, there are potentially many underlying factors to the trans debate - I've seen spectrum disorders being discussed as a frequent one and nobody on here seems to think this should give them a pass to women's spaces.

Scott "I'll get none of you would ever actually see a trans person in your changing room in real life."

What's your bet on any of us seeing a "self-id'ing" predatory man or fetishist in a women's space?

The Stonewall umbrella of trans people covers about 500,000 people in the UK at the moment. It includes cross dressers/ men with AGP. Most of whom have no medical treatment, either surgical or hormonal.
We’re already seeing trans women in women’s prisons, women’s sports, women’s awards, taking women’s officer positions. It is already causing issues. You’re not noticing it because it has zero impact on you.

scittc Different races do not commit crimes at different rates once you control for factors such as poverty. Race leads to discrimination ( Including by the police) leads to poverty leads to crime. That’s why segregation based on race is wrong.its increasing discrimination which will not improve society.

I'll bet that should've been

So you would outsource the problem to women, and hope that their female socialisation means that not many would complain?

Didn't say that.

It just seems that 'terfs' do not necessarily represent the wider opinion - if they did it surely wouldn't be such a dirty word.

Personally, I can totally see the concern but I think the issue is likely more an ideological one than something which is going to cause lots of real life issues. The trans community is a miniscule proportion of the population and even if self ID came in (which I don't think it likely should) I'll get none of you would ever actually see a trans person in your changing room in real life.

So you would outsource the problem to women, and hope that their female socialisation means that not many would complain?
I am fed up with Women being expected to solve everyone’s problems. We are not your mummy and we are not a trans person’s mummy. I am fed up with being expected to “be kind” when men and trans people are not willing to be kind also.

^You don’t want non-conforming men in your men-only spaces, even though they would not be a threat to you physically.
If men were willing to accept that not all men were stereotypically “masculine” then that would prevent a lot of pain for non-conforming male-born people.^

That's a fair argument, but most trans people don't want to share a changing room with people like me, and I'd say that there are likely more women who are sympathetic to the trans issue than there are men.

I mean, why is "terf" such a dirty word, and why are gender critical views being shot down left right and centre on social media, in workplaces, in political parties, etc. It surely wouldn't happen if everyone agreed with them.

Therein lies the contradiction. It's like there being only one spare kidney and the best outcome for each person who needs it is getting it, with that same situation being the worst outcome for the other.
It's nothing like that. It's more like two people who have two kidneys each, but one of those people thinks the other should give up a kidney, just because.

But I don't regard genuine transsexuals as being anything akin to myself as a fairly typical bloke.
There you go. We don't consider them to be anything akin to women either, and don't want men in our spaces.

Scott It seems that you, and men like you, are the problem here.
You don’t want non-conforming men in your men-only spaces, even though they would not be a threat to you physically.
If men were willing to accept that not all men were stereotypically “masculine” then that would prevent a lot of pain for non-conforming male-born people.

And I don’t consider transsexuals, or other transwomen, as being anything akin to myself as a woman either in biology or lived experience.
So why should I have to have a male-born person in sex-segregated spaces?

That's like me as a white Brit saying that my sense of identity aligns best with someone who's Jamaican. How the hell would I know? And if I tried saying that to someone who was Jamaican just imagine the eye rolling that would ensue.

You, Scott, are the American standing to the side telling the eye-rolling Jamaican person that no, you really think that it's important that my beliefs be honored and it's kind of sad how they don't see how important it is to me and how tragic it is that they don't feel the same.

Don't be that person. Nobody likes that person.

I don't have a problem sharing a women-only space with transsexuals and people with genuine gender dysphoria. I have a massive problem with a piece of legislation that normalises and legitimises blokes in frocks loitering in women's dressing rooms and packs of AGPs acting out their fetishes in spaces intended for victims of sexual violence etc.

I'm pretty much of this view, although ultimately as a heterosexual bloke it's not my place to say what should happen wirh women's spaces. But I don't regard genuine transsexuals as being anything akin to myself as a fairly typical bloke.

Scott You are talking about gender stereotyping.

If you are straight, would you sleep with a transwoman, or are they not “womanly” enough for you?

It's hard to explain why I think this. To give an analogy, I think religion is pretty much a delusion, yet I'd never say that a devout Muslim would be better off living in a devout Christian community. It's to do with identity, and whilst I'm extremely sceptical of identity politics on the whole, I think many transwomen's sense of identity would align better with women's than with that of a fairly masculine bloke like myself. Maybe (or maybe not) how a lot of young gay males seem to fit in better with female friend circles at school before they enter the proper gay scene after passing adolescence. I'm not talking about the Daniel Muscatos etc, some of whom I don't really think are proper TW, more fetishists.

Hi Scott,
Re your race analogy, you could equally argue that the history of slavery and evidence of ongoing institutional racism show that white people are a threat and should be excluded. The race analogies are absurd and bring absolutely nothing to the debate about GRA.
I don't have a problem sharing a women-only space with transsexuals and people with genuine gender dysphoria. I have a massive problem with a piece of legislation that normalises and legitimises blokes in frocks loitering in women's dressing rooms and packs of AGPs acting out their fetishes in spaces intended for victims of sexual violence etc. If you have doubts, read the Trans Widows thread.

I'm not sure why a man's opinion on whether or not transwomen belong in women's spaces is even relevant.