Passing privilege

How do you know this? Do you monitor their actions/conversations?

Ha if only we lived in a world where women had to go out of their way to monitor men's conversations in order to get a continuous running commentary on male opinions

It's very noticeable isn't it that these men constantly banging on at women to be generous towards those who harm and exploit us are never to be found asking their fellow men to treat women with a little more generosity.

How do you know this? Do you monitor their actions/conversations?

Perhaps I'm just too naive, but I'd have thought that there would be considerable incentive for transfolk to not take the piss if granted this privilege - else it might be reversed.

I genuinely think that most true transsexuals just want to behave and get on with their lives as if they were natal women, but seemingly this doesn't really matter in the argument. People who want to stroll in with a big beard etc are surely a different matter, and surely they wouldn't even be meeting the criteria of 'committing to living as a woman' which is necessary to get a GRC in the first place?

recognising male pattern violence is not equivalent to racism

Perfectly put

Also, the idea that the entitled violence of men (as a class) can be compared to the responses of groups of bame people to systemic disadvantage is racist in itself.

Indeed, changing the law could well be an enabler, giving more opportunity for sexual abuse. I was just focusing on answering the question and focussing on the unassailable rather than the probable

Midgebabe The safe spaces, which are enforced currently by society norms , are less about preventing rape ( which more often is done by someone who has gained your trust , who says they are no threat ) than about showing respect and giv8ng women opportunity
That's true, but legitimising the presence of men in frocks in women's spaces would create opportunities for rapists, I have no doubt about that. What I find curious is the dismissive notion that these things would be unlikely to happen. So why the concern for transwomen having to use men's rooms?

When women and children are raped and murdered it's nearly always a man to blame, Jnr. Men commit 98% of sex offences and women's wariness is entirely rational.

Men who identify as women are at least as likely to be sex offenders as other men. More of them than other men, going by the proportion of them in prison for such offences. Transvestism is the most common paraphilia among rapists.

On top of that, Self ID would allow any man access to spaces where women are naked or otherwise vulnerable. It's a considerable risk to take and it seems at least 83% of people oppose the idea.

Your arguments are tired and repetitive. No, recognizing male pattern violence is not equivalent to racism. No, ageism doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive. No, we won't be bullied into being kind and womanly... You're not doing well here.

Dear Scott

No is a complete sentence, not the beginning of a negotiation.

Men who cannot understand this should really fuck right off to the far side of fuck but they never do.

This is what we call a QED.

Lang

The point I wanted to make was that you have a limit.

Now, I will tr to explain why my limit is where it is.

I do not think being in a changing room with a male body would cause my death, but it would knock my mental health . Panic attacks, anxiety, to the extent that I would be excluded from such places without a suitable escort. I would have to give up going to the gym, I would only be able to shop online. Is that the society you want? Women excluded from public life?

Is it just me?

mental health problems are a very common result of sexual assault . Ptsd is very common result of rape. And about 20 to 25% of women have suffered rape or other serious sexual assault. In such cases, episodes can be triggered by men in inappropriate places, in not being in control of who sees you naked. The feeling of vulnerab8ility.

The respect that men give women by giving us safe spaces helps build back trust between men and women. The safe spaces, which are enforced currently by society norms , are less about preventing rape ( which more often is done by someone who has gained your trust , who says they are no threat ) than about showing respect and giv8ng women opportunity

Most rapes are carried out by men who has said they are safe good people we can trust. , think about it,

It's very noticeable isn't it that these men constantly banging on at women to be generous towards those who harm and exploit us are never to be found asking their fellow men to treat women with a little more generosity.

Would you really help if you thought the likely result would be your death? Serious injury?

You really think a transwoman getting dressed next to you will likely result in your death?

I'd never try and force it upon women (it's your ultimate choice), but I think the younger generation are much more prepared to accept transpeople and hopefully we'll see a future where this is possible.

As I said before, there were people once upon a time who would've been enraged about 'blacks' sharing their changing rooms.

That's not a rational response to the discussion, Scott. I note that you haven't answered my questions. You don't have to, but I'm beginning to think that it's all about superficial wokeness for you as you don't want to discuss any of the real, practical concerns related to this issue. You seem to want to "help" a particular group of people with zero consideration for women's safety. That's your prerogative, but I hope you don't think it makes you morally superior, because that would be silly.

What a manipulative, passive aggressive statement, ScottCheggJnr.

Men who identify as women are not women's problem to solve. I'm all out of compassion for people who show nothing but contempt for us.

Would you really help if you thought the likely result would be your death? Serious injury? Or do you donate all your salary every month to shelter? Because of you don’t you can’t ask women to give up their safety and ability to participate in society on the basis of helping someone’s else

Changing the tide, not ride

The ‘Not all men’ argument doesn’t work. So much appalling Male behaviour has been normalised, and excused as ‘boys will be boys’.

It’s time men started to make the change for themselves. Rather than bleating ‘not all men’ and defending their sex that way they should be defending the victims, calling out their own sex and changing the ride.

But this isn’t going to happen because women take responsibility for their own safety so we change OUR behaviour, they don’t change theirs.

It's my right to walk past somebody in need of help but I'd still probably stop.
But you just said you want us to do the helping. Sorry, not my problem.

Ah, the appeal to femininity. You make decisions for you, ScottChegg, you don't get to dictate women's boundaries to us.

I guess we'll never agree. It's my right to walk past somebody in need of help but I'd still probably stop.

The majority of woman (just) haven’t been sexually assaulted, but I’ll still use my privilege to protect theirs and to defend their right to safe spaces.

It’s not about odds. It’s about our hard-won rights being dismantled.

Scott But what about the non-violent majority? Are they to be condemned for the actions of a few? All the discussion seems to be around the unhinged few (although of course I appreciate that they're the ones causing the problems).

The majority of men are not violent. Nevertheless, I don't want men in women's changing rooms. I don't share a gender identity with transwomen. They don't share a gender identity with men. Why am I the one who has to compromise and undress in front of them?

And why are we accountable, in the example, for how men make transwomen feel? Why is the onus always on women?

I’d wager that women who have played football for the last few decades would feel his pain.

What about them? They don’t suffer in this scenario. They might feel a bit put out.

I'd wager that the transwoman in female attire who has to get undressed alongside the men's football team would disagree.

ScottCheggJnr the polls that have asked for public views, from the serious YouGov one Pink News commissioned to the unscientific ones done by The Times and the one currently running in a Leeds local paper show that 80-90% of the public hold what you describe as "terf" views. N.B. that term is unacceptable on Mumsnet, so be careful how you use it. You don't want to get banned.

The trans rights lobby has played a blinder, using entryism to gain access to the great and the good. They have established themselves as a sort of super gay. But when exposed to sunlight and reason the whole edifice disintegrates.

When out leafletting over recent weeks I've only had two people disagree, compared to dozens and dozens who agreed and were often very concerned. The main reaction to hearing about Self ID is disbelief that the government is contemplating such an obviously risky move. People are prepared to be kind to legitimate post op transsexuals but that doesn't mean they actually think TWAW, even less that they think it's reasonable to allow males access to female only spaces just on their own say so.

As one of my DC keeps saying, this is not going to end well. If visibly male people start exposing themselves in front of women and girls I predict there will be public order offences.