Passing privilege

And if you sense some negativity on the board, I will admit, I am torn between thinking you are a man trying tonunderstand or you are an MRA waiting to strike

The thing is, being honest? Even if one man finally understanding was the result, it's really not worth the time and effort expended by all the women here. One dude's enlightenment just isn't that important, and the women could all get much more done if they made the quite rational decision not to bother with the dude and his endless toddler tugging at mummy's hem behavior.

If it's your actual child, sure, but some random on the internet? Nah. Let him remain confused, if confused he actually is.

Yy. Swiss cheese model

The men who murder their wives and girlfriends are not just violent drunks from broken homes

If men don't want to share facilities with transwomen, then it's up to them to negotiate that with them. It's not up to women to sort out the problem. The very fact that the default is for women to suffer the consequences demonstrates exactly why women need single sex spaces

Nearly all my girlfriends in the last 4 decades who have all been natal females have been stopped usually in motorway service stations, with the excuse me sir ........the gents is ........oh I am so sorry madam

but I know many gay men who look very pretty , even in just jeans and t shirts who get told , when going into the gents the ladies is next door love

I've no issue with trans people of either sex being in my changing room, but I just know they probably don't want to be there and many men won't feel the same as me.
And sending them to women's dressing rooms along with the bandwidth men, Karen Whites and all those trans who want to keep their male genitals solves the problem?

I'm well aware that some trans people disagree with self ID. There are several who post on here.

Personally I don't have a problem with men taking part in these discussions, but "mansplaining" is a very apt description of what you're doing here, Scott, assuming you are a man. You come across as clueless and don't seem to take anything on board. And what's worse, you seem to think that all transwomen support self-ID. They don't - for the same reasons some of us have repeatedly explained to you. It really is insufferable. It would be great if you could read some of the stuff published on transkids.us - if you're actually interested in a range opinions from the TS community.

Whether you hang your head in shame is none of my business. I don't care how men as a class choose to reform themselves.

Not my circus, not my monkeys. But when a hefty load of you think that women's rights and boundaries don't mean shit, and that they can either be ignored or shrugged away because 'who cares?', I will quite happily tell you your opinion is as necessary, welcome or relevant as Peter Andre on Question Time.

Funny I could have sworn I recognised your turn of phrase.

Perhaps because I was quoting from the other thread...

And what does it matter who I am anyway. It matters little in this discussion.

Why should I take a hint and be bullied off here because I won't agree with you? Many female posters have already commented about 'the clique' on here who all descend on those who disagree with the 'accepted view'.

And then you go on other social media sites and wonder why you get insta-banned and why everyone won't 'shut up and listen'.

I'm actually leaning towards being anti-self ID but I like to understand things rather than blindly follow the crowd.

Funny I could have sworn I recognised your turn of phrase

Not everybody who disagrees with you is the same person lol...

I was a lurker back then so I highly doubt it. But I've been lurking for ages and I've seen many of the epic argument threads/have a good idea of who is who on here...

Apologies if I've come across a bit bullish, I'm just a direct person.

I don't think anyone gives a shit about you being direct. I certainly don't. To me, you're being the boor at a party who's had one too many and can't take a hint. But y'know. That's just me. NAWALT and all that.

It's not two reprobates though, it's two a week

And that's just for murder, then we have DV in general (3 suicides a week iirc), rape - nearly 10,000 a week for E&W... I'm not going to go on actually, as that's depressing enough.

If that's all two reprobates, they're busy men.

Re Scott 's 'deviant minority/criminal' etc who he says are responsible for those two women murdered a week and apparently the vast majority of rapes/sexual assaults - if you had at any point listened to women, you would know most women were raped/assaulted by someone known to them, ie a partner/family member, not a passing psychopath. The x2 a week is (if memory serves) women killed by current or ex partners, not serial killers out to decimate the female population.
Men can only improve this situation by confronting each other about unacceptable behaviour and modelling better behaviour. Boys will learn from their fathers that it is ok to stand up to other men, instead of learning to keep their heads down and let the women take the fall. It is not women's job to tell men not to rape or kill.

Oh hi Scott! Of course I remember you from the thread with all the RAINN references. You used to be a bit of a regular on threads about rape at one time didn't you?

Beyond

Scott, you rather miss the point. It's a 'sort your own shit out, fellas' thing.

So, you're saying that if 30,999,998 of us 'sort our shit out' but two reprobate let us down, then we all have to hang our heads in shame.

I can't agree with you on that.

The only reason this is an issue is because men as a class think they cannot accept GNC males into their spaces.

I don't think this Is this issue at all. I think the issue is being driven by TRAs who absolutely refuse to accept anything but access to women's facilities, and that the average bloke on the street knows and cares even less about it than the average non-GC woman.

Its not just violence, Scott. Its that women use women's bathrooms for more than peeing. For example, its the place we go to miscarry. that happens to over 600 women a day in the UK alone.
Its where we go to clean up the blood after we unexpectedly flood, to cry, or to get away from men who are bothering us.

I will inform my two dead friends that you think they are being used as a gotcha against men. Oh no I won't. They're dead.

Scott, you rather miss the point. It's a 'sort your own shit out, fellas' thing, it's not a 'Sit there while I expend lots of energy trying to work out a way of helping you convince other men to welcome males who don't conform to gender norms into your spaces.'

You guys created this problem. The only reason this is an issue is because men as a class think they cannot accept GNC males into their spaces. Either due to homophobia, macho posing, psychopathic tendencies... I don't care. Every single dudebro who comes here arguing for male bodied feminine presenting individuals to come into women's spaces is saying "I'm an unpleasant person who doesn't want that kind of person near me because I'm either a homophobe or an insecure bully. I'm going to cover that up by telling women they need to accommodate the man I am uncomfortable with, even though it may well put them at risk, because I'm too much of a wet rag to deal with my prejudices"

It's absolutely insufferable.

People often seem to use the 'two a week' as a gotcha against men, but statistically it's 0.000006 of men that murder.

Floral,

Whilst fully acknowledging that men commit the large majority of violence, I think there's a bit of an unrealistic expectation that us men can police the actions of every individual. There's over 31 million of us in this country and it only takes two criminals/mentally ill individuals to fulfil the 'two a week' statistic.

Yes, we can try and encourage boys to be more respectful etc, but will this even impact violent drunks from broken homes, etc.

I remember a previous discussion on here about rape culture. RAINN (possibly the biggest authority on the matter with over 1000 service providers) made it very clear that their research showed the problem to be down to a small, deviant number of individuals and said it didn't find it helpful to blame it on a 'culture'. In fact, they said it actually took culpability away from the specific minority that were responsible.

You've got a fair point, but ultimately it is down to the establishment in question to decide who they let into their changing rooms. A leisure centre, for example, isn't a 'public' place in the same way the street is.