Is this an about-face from The Guardian?

I don’t usually post on this board. But I have to agree with a PP.

There is clearly big money and some big interests behind this sudden outbreak of legislation, which is being pushed through, and not just here.

Why do we suddenly find ourselves fighting a battle that didn’t even exist a short time ago? How come legislation is being pushed through which is not widely supported (understatement) and the public has never asked for? Why has the media stopped critically examining people and material, and started jumping blindly on any bandwagon that rolls in?

Because someone is throwing money at it. It didn’t appear out of nowhere.

I feel that we must tackle the immediate arguments and at the same time look behind the noise, and question exactly where these things are really coming from, and why.

Oh yeah, and the opinion polls are showng that the Labour vote is suffering a decline which I suspect is largely from the centre left, revolted by suppression of opinion across a number of subjects. The trans debate is a particular demoralising issue to women voters who might consider voting labour.

This is due to a large 'don't know' group, of whom, women are a particularly high percentage being discounted in polling.

The Labour gamble is that when push comes to shove the don't knows will vote Labour anyway, because they want to keep the Tories out and the thought that the Tories are worse.

My suspicion is actually that lots of women in this group, won't do that. They will stay home thinking it makes fuck all difference.

Labour, despite the Cons current car crash haven't made a polling break though. They didn't even get a post conference bounce in the polls which is normal.

They have cause to be concerned, and yes the left need to get a grip on this.

I'm also less inclined to hammer the likes of the Guardian because it's become clear the extent to which the TRA machine has been effective. We have a political culture that we're all responsible for and we've allowed social media to become the modern day equivalent of the stocks. An unthinking comment can result in worldwide vilification of private individuals - no trial, no investigation, just instant demonisation. TRAs have capitalised on this.

The TRAs traded on and relied on others acting in good faith and with trust. They took that and have acting in a way which totally exploited that good nature and they abused the position of trust that Stonewall had built up over many years.

This owes a lot to the public being naive and just being generally good people who haven't been exposed to the shit out there in the world. Its born of privilidge.

We live in world in which in the last couple of weeks a journalist was dismembered whilst still alive in an embassy on foreign soil, whilst the leader of the free world was probably aware of what was about to happen.

This is the back drop and the context of freedom. The Stasi. Nazis. Stalin. Saudis. Taliban. Iraq. China. All in which freedom of speech and expression ceased to exist and genuine oppression which got / gets you killed exists.

The Glulag comments and the santisation of Communism need to also be taken very seriously in this context.

They're not going away. They are going to regroup yet again and come back with a different but yet another heartrending depiction of transpeople that our media is not going to be able to reject or ignore. They are invested in this and have created an army of vulnerable people who genuinely believe the narrative that their lives are in danger and that they're hated. They are the ones we need to look to if we want to change how this ends up because they are the ones that the media, the police, the woke bros believe are in need of protection.

This. Yes. This.

Keep on keeping on. Its going to get crazier.

It's not just that the Guardian missed the story. They actively silenced women trying to point it out to them, quickly and comprehensively deleting ANY comments suggesting women had a stake in this debate.

Absolutely this.

Thank you for reminding me about the comment deletions too, I had forgotten that.

I hope the writer of this article (do we know who it was?) gets a job somewhere good once the Guardian disappears into the sunset with LOJ.

This working together across political differences sounds quite funny when it is upper middle class reaching out to upper middle class that has a false leftie identity.

I'm another poster who is grateful that Justine & MN hosted this debate. There have been plenty of times in the last few years where MN has been the only mainstream site to even allow discussion and that has been the starting point for many women to explore and debate this matter. It's frequently been the only place for women to read another view and that has been hugely important as a starting point.

I'm not blind to the fact that MN having the courage to keep this part of the platform open is due, in no small fact, to posters themselves who have, over the years, provided debate, information and perspective and have ensured that MNHQ is more aware of the nuances of this particular discussion than most. I think they've had to find their own way to support women and allow free speech without allowing that to infringe overly on the views and indeed, rights, of others. Sometimes support is what happens behind the scenes and not out front.

I'm also less inclined to hammer the likes of the Guardian because it's become clear the extent to which the TRA machine has been effective. We have a political culture that we're all responsible for and we've allowed social media to become the modern day equivalent of the stocks. An unthinking comment can result in worldwide vilification of private individuals - no trial, no investigation, just instant demonisation. TRAs have capitalised on this.

They have been funded. They have been organised and manipulative from the outset. They have changed tactics and strategy when necessary and they have played groups off against each other in a way that we've never seen in the UK before. They have ensured that they were influencers long before most of us knew that kind of campaigning and advertising existed. All of the successful campaigns by feminists have been studied and used by TRAs against women - we unwittingly gave them the tools to build themselves up and they took them and ran with it.

When it became clear that the bathroom issue was losing traction, they switched to comparing themselves to the LGB struggle. When they lost ground with that position, they switched their angle to children. When they lost ground with that position, they've switched to 'TERF's are men, not women'. They are now referring to Orwell and being silenced using the exact same arguments that we've all been using for the past few years. It's textbook TRA strategy to question who is behind the resistance to their agenda and to suggest that there are dark, shady movements at work funding this resistance. They know damn well that it's a bunch of indignant women who are throwing all the loose change they have at it but that doesn't suit their public narrative. It's not a coincidence that after years of threatening women, that they are now rewriting history by pretending that TERFs are men and they're scared of them. We told them that men were the threat and now they're pretending that that is what they have been scared of all along.

They're not going away. They are going to regroup yet again and come back with a different but yet another heartrending depiction of transpeople that our media is not going to be able to reject or ignore. They are invested in this and have created an army of vulnerable people who genuinely believe the narrative that their lives are in danger and that they're hated. They are the ones we need to look to if we want to change how this ends up because they are the ones that the media, the police, the woke bros believe are in need of protection.

What the journos forget is, of course, that they can only be as diverse as their backgrounds. They won‘t address that though, cause they might have to swap their job with someone like Lisa Muggridge.

As long as the Guardian talks about "trans women and other women" I shall take their stance with a damn great sackful of salt.

What is wrong with "trans women and women"? It's accurate.

Re: The Guardian

I don't want it to spontaneously combust. Mainly because it IS still the the only broadsheet on the left and that counters some of the more right wing stuff in the Telegraph. We NEED a plurality in a democracy.

The guardian HAS reported a lot of other issues and areas over the last couple of years that I do regard as important. Particularly in reference to data protection, privacy and the use /misuse of big data.

So no matter how pissed I am at the lilly livered crap Reverse Ferret, I AM pleased to see this reminder to its self (as well as its readers) what its responsibility as a newspaper actually is.

It should help to calm everything down, even if it takes a pasting in the meantime.

But the Guardian need to know they have A LOT to do to restore trust that it has broken in spouting crap in an uncritical fashion and dispensing with engaging with readers and centring the concerns of readers.

I support The Guardian in this sense. That does not stop me being very, very angry with it. It didn't take its responsibility seriously and has let the public down. A newspaper which doesn't understand this, is simply pure propaganda and is a dangerous threat to democracy.

Here's some more from the Journosummit:

NewsworksUK @newsworksuk
Freddie Mayhew: Is it possible to do quality journalism in the digital age? Yes, absolutely says @emmayoule - "there's a real appetite for original journalism that is properly research, that gives people to voices that don't have them" #journosummit18

We don't want dumbed down shit! Well theres a shocker. I wonder who has seen MNs traffic figures by forum and the popularity of politics.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
We're seeing more great use of pictures in digital journalism - graphics, sketches and cartoons. You want to break up your content to make it make sense to your readers, Paul Foot award-winning Emma Youle says in discussion about quality journalism online. #journosummit18

Step forward and take a bow SandyDrawsBadly! You rock.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Emma Youle: One of the early questions for me is who will be affected by this and how do we tell their stories. "That for me is right at the heart." #journosummit18

Cue Hallejulah Rift

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Emma Youle: The storytelling might not always be within your own site - journalists are often tweeting about stories too to create more of an audience. "I think it's really intuitive." #journosummit18

JOURNALISTS NEED EACH OTHER. They need others from across the political spectrum. They aid each other and make debate by having that plurality. This drives public debate.

And BOOM:

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Newstatesman digital editor Jasper Jackson on the power of Reddit when growing an online readership: "Reddit is one of the biggest traffic drivers ... but you can't have a strategy for Reddit, it just doesn't work that way." #journosummit18

You could replace Reddit with MN - though perhaps not to quite the same extent - its about the importance and power of forum based discussions. MN drives traffic to news content. MN's power is within this dynamic. And because MN is women focused, its will drive women related stories more naturally. Forum based sites, CAN NOT be ignored by the press.

The Guardian CAN NOT ignore what is said on MN.

We've known this all along, but there it is. Right there in that tiny tweet. And thats why you have a Guardian Reverse Ferret.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Newstatesman digital editor Jasper Jackson: "Data is not going to be able to tell why people pay you, keep paying you and become a loyal subscriber." #journosummmit18

What did MN ask a couple of weeks ago? This EXACT question.

Press Gazette @pressgazette
Maeve McClenaghan on future: "More and more we're going to have to make sure our products are differentiated enough from the lower quality clickbaity stuff to keep people engaged." People are starting to recognise stuff that has value amongst internet noise. #journosummit18

Who would have thought it. Twitter and 280 character slogans, don't cut it in the long run.

I've thought that for a long time. If you want to get a message through and a nuanced complex argument through, its a LONG HARD SLOG. You will never achieve it in a twitter spat. You have to keep on trying and keep on plugging.

Arrhhh. This conference is sweet music to my ears. Its long over due and utterly fascinating.

Yes, it must be so disappointing to read a newspaper saying over and again that women are nasty meanies who don't matter and then printing a few paragraphs saying they might have a point about some things

This!!

And as so many others have said - massive respect to Justine and MNHQ.

Yes. Sometimes I get crabby when the trolls and sock puppets show up and moderation seems lax but, yes. Thank you, Justine and MNHQ.

Decades of supporting Labour, reading the Guardian and being a supporter of Stonewall. All gone. No more support, money or time from me. Everything redirected to what I would have seen as the 'right wing' press yet who have proved to be the defenders of democracy and free speech as well as providing genuinely excellent investigative journalism.

And as so many others have said - massive respect to Justine and MNHQ. She could have switched us all off but chose not to and even though I regret the nature of the moderation of this issue, we can all see writ large the excessive bullying and intimidation that Mumsnet must have been hit with.

And as for the Grauniad - too little and too late.

Yes, it must be so disappointing to read a newspaper saying over and again that women are nasty meanies who don't matter and then printing a few paragraphs saying they might have a point about some things.

If you're a raving woman-hater.

Oh - and respect to The Times and The Spectator who have the courage of their conviction and the conviction of their courage.

The Guardian can fuck off. And take the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn wee Owen and the other fuckers with them.

And Julie Bindel, of course. Who has her own trigger warning

Over on twitter 'Dr' Harrop is disappointed

Awww, diddums. Perhaps wee Owen can cheer you up.

To save democracy we must save journalism. To save journalism, newspapers and broadcast media have to do more than parrot lobby groups. They have to drill down into areas of public interest and concern

This this this. I think Arseface's point about the death of local news is hugely relevant as well. If nobody is reporting on local news, how are journalists going to find out what's going on outside their elitist bubble?

True, I shouldn't be ungrateful to the media who have covered this story. But at one point, it felt like I could count on one hand the number of journalists who would cover these issues critically.

The Times, in particular Janice Turner (plus Andrew Gilligan & Lucy Bannerman) have been excellent. Special props to the Spectator for giving James Kirkup a platform to dig into this. And the Mail for covering ManFriday. Plus Sarah Ditum, Helen Lewis, Victoria Smith and others. The publishing of the essays in the Economist was a real win for critical thought and free speech, so thanks to the editor for that one.

The Times is now my go-to paper.

The BBC and the Guardian call themselves the "good guys."
You're right, most of my ire is really directed at them.

I'd have to see a lot more like this in The Guardian before I changed my mind about it. Until then, I cannot wait for the day it dies a horrible flaming painful financial death.

Would just like to respond to Arseface.

It won't wash. There are women in the industry who have told editors what is happening. They were ignored, or rebuked, or worse. There is no excuse. The only thing these news organisations have now realised is which side their bread is buttered.

It cannot be such that when journalists are trained and paid to uncover the truth, to question our institutions, to promote democracy, that it takes normal women on a parenting forum to be the actual champions of freedom of speech and critical thought

Yes. But the Times, Spectator and even the Daily Mail championed free speech on this issue. The Guardian and BBC are the biggest culprits.

And Arseface, I did not mean to attack you as a person.
I am glad you see the problems.
I am just incredibly disappointed in the media, many institutions, and the Guardian in particular.
I cannot bear any excuses for the shit journalists and the media have been complicit in putting women through. Not right now.
It cannot be such that when journalists are trained and paid to uncover the truth, to question our institutions, to promote democracy, that it takes normal women on a parenting forum to be the actual champions of freedom of speech and critical thought.

Excellent thoughtful article. Thank you for sharing OP. I don't see it as an about face but a recognition there is a clear conflict with no easy solution.

The Guardian rejects the idea that one of these positions is the right one – and the other wrong. Important questions of personal identity are at stake, but also legal rights and protections.

The chattering classes in the UK have a lot to answer for.

THIS.

Thank fuck for Mumsnet and ordinary women on Twitter. I for one still think Justine did a very brave thing by letting women speak, even with these stupid restrictions. While I am sure that FWR probably is a huge draw for Mumsnet (it's the only reason I am here), she could have easily saved herself the grief and harassment by shutting women down. Just like everyone else has.

So thanks MN

I trust the women on here more than I trust most of our elite institutions.

Not only just. I’ve been reading these boards for ages but in a personal capacity.

Off to work now so will sign off.