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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this an about-face from The Guardian?

263 replies

NopeNi · 17/10/2018 19:07

Well fuck me I wouldn't have expected to read this in the Guardian.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it still focuses on rights for transwomen and calls both sides of the debate "toxic" (of course) but it also says:

..."But misogyny too must be challenged. Gender identity does not cancel out sex. Women’s oppression by men has a physical basis, and to deny the relevance of biology when considering sexual inequality is a mistake. The struggle for women’s empowerment is ongoing. Reproductive freedoms are under threat and the #MeToo campaign faces a backlash. Women’s concerns about sharing dormitories or changing rooms with “male-bodied” people must be taken seriously. These are not just questions of safety but of dignity and fairness."

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/the-guardian-view-on-the-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide

OP posts:
SPOFS · 18/10/2018 16:24

My theory is that the Tories have de-medicalized the trans process so that the NHS doesn't have to fund them anymore.

Or...

The tories will blame the collapse of he NhS on the left wing for pushing the self-I'd things through. Imagine how many lawsuits the NHS will have in 20 years when the children being experimented on realize what was done to them... it will kill the nhs, and the lefty will be to blame...

FlowersAndHerts · 18/10/2018 16:22

I think it's more men's sexual rights liberalism, than the Pharma angle.
I agree with that. Pharma has always taken advantage of existing conditions, and medicalised them, as described in the interesting bbc programme that RedToothBrush links to. But it has no need to invest in something that will medicalise such a small number of people.

Yes, agree to have gained so much traction, it must be a perfect storm, a bit like Trump.

LangCleg · 18/10/2018 16:16

I don't think it's just one thing. It's a perfect storm situation because it can service a variety of agendas, hence why it's gained traction so rapidly.

Me too.

OvaHere · 18/10/2018 16:11

I don't think it's just one thing. It's a perfect storm situation because it can service a variety of agendas, hence why it's gained traction so rapidly.

kesstrel · 18/10/2018 16:11

Blistory

I'm seriously struggling to believe it's anything other than men wanting the world to be their playground again.

It's definitely, in part, a men's sexual rights movement.

But I also think there are a lot of people out there who have been duped by the way TRAs have linked it to the gay rights struggle, and who just believe whatever Stonewall say must be right because they're the good guys.

With luck, there will be a slow rowing back from that among everyone but the most woke, as long as open discussion carries on. But that might not happen if the media just drops the whole issue again if the government backs away from amending the GRA after all.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 18/10/2018 16:08

I think it's more men's sexual rights liberalism, than the Pharma angle. As others say, the population isn't big enough, especially with the push for de-medicalising it.

OvaHere · 18/10/2018 16:04

I used to be a bit sceptical about paywalls and their usefulness but I've come around to the idea that if you don't buy hard copy anymore it's actually important to choose a publication you like and support it financially. I think if people don't we can't hope to have decent journalism in the future.

kesstrel · 18/10/2018 16:00

Prawn is right about the huge decline in resources for investigative journalism - or indeed ANY type of journalism. Quality newspapers just cannot afford the staff to do anywhere near what should be done. That's why lots of stories are now taken straight from the wire services, or (worse still) from press releases from PR firms, with no time for fact checking.

Nick Davies wrote a really good book about this called Flat Earth News that goes into detail about this. Newspaper print sales have dropped very sharply, and they get less advertising revenue as well, all because of the Internet. And yes, it is having serious consequences for democracy.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2018 15:59

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b096sjk2/billion-dollar-deals-and-how-they-changed-your-world-series-1-1-health

Billion dollar deals and how they changed your world.

If you've not watched episode 1, please do so. It's not about trans issues.

It will shock you.

Blistory · 18/10/2018 15:57

I believe targeting children wasn't about achieving social contagion - that was an unexpected bonus. It was about tugging at heart strings and deflecting away from the whole "expanding the bandwidth" type of transwomen with beards.

False suicide statistics were always going to be proven as crap but they don't care - it's not about the suicides, it's about making us all scared to open our mouths. It's another deflection and when they're called out on it, TRAs don't explain, they simply ignore.

I don't think it's big Pharma either - I'm seriously struggling to believe it's anything other than men wanting the world to be their playground again.

RosaNullaSpina · 18/10/2018 15:52

You could be right, FlowersAndHerts. I admit I am getting a bit paranoid with all this! I really hope you are right.

FlowersAndHerts · 18/10/2018 15:49

But the going into schools thing is gaining traction - get them while they’re young! That could be massive.
I've not thought this out at all, but I feel the schools thing is a by-product. Pharma has plenty of legitimate targets to make money, and doesn't need to create illness. And if the trend is to de-medicalise gender dysphoria, there'll be no public money for treatment anyway. The activists are looking to legitimise their fetishes, not to create a medical condition.

RosaNullaSpina · 18/10/2018 15:42

FlowersAndHerts, no, not many activists now. But the going into schools thing is gaining traction - get them while they’re young! That could be massive.

PierreBezukov · 18/10/2018 15:41

Heresy. I agree. For a while now I've honestly wondered if we are sleepwalking into a totalitarian state.

And it's a global shift. Freedom of speech is being systematically eroded worldwide. And liberal values are under threat from the very institutions - the Guardian, BBC and Channel 4 among others - that claim to be the torchbearers of liberalism. It is frightening.

FlowersAndHerts · 18/10/2018 15:39

I just don't see the Big Pharma thing, as it's just too small compared with lucrative other markets. And many of these activists are not really interested in true transition.

RosaNullaSpina · 18/10/2018 15:38

I also think in the UK a lot of this is due to the class system. As Prawn says, there is a lot more overt nepotism now, and people from less privileged backgrounds can no longer get to do things they would once have had the chance to do. Acting and journalism are prime examples.

RosaNullaSpina · 18/10/2018 15:35

Prawnofthepatriarchy & heresyandwitchcraft, YES.

Re. the ‘bigger agenda’ several posters have mentioned; I think one is definitely the Big Pharma and biomedics fields. Drug companies are desperately looking for new markets right now, because a lot (not all, of course) of the drugs they manufactured are turning out to be not very good/harmful or just useless. Imagine a massive new market of children and young people wanting to ‘transition’; the surgery, the drugs, the hormones, the therapy to cope with all the mind bending etc - it would be their dream! Quite a few politicians have connections to the pharmaceutical industry.

And the biomedics field; artificial wombs. Who needs women at all then?!

Blistory · 18/10/2018 15:30

There's something that we're all missing and I don't know what it is.

I do believe that the whole TRA agenda is simply a different manifestation of sexism and homophobia so I think it predates all the liberal handwringing and consciousness raising. I think what we're seeing is simply social media freeing the beast.

We're constrained, rightly or wrongly, when dealing face to face or with named people. The likes of Twitter removes that. People don't have to account for or even see the damage their words do. That's freeing to minority voices but it's a massively destructive and powerful weapon in the hands of men who hate women.

The bit that's missing however, in my view, is why the simple premise that women and girls are going to be harmed is not having much of an impact. Have we been duped about how serious people are about treating women equally ? What message have transactivists been able to get across or what soft spot in the liberal belly have they gone after that we've missed ?

scepticalwoman · 18/10/2018 15:18

Great posts Heresyandwitchcraft, LangCleg and of course RedToothBrush. An intelligent and insightful thread.

Star Star Star for all of you!

LangCleg · 18/10/2018 15:12

I'm also less inclined to hammer the likes of the Guardian

I'm not. I'm more inclined to hammer the likes of the Guardian.

I'm not the biggest fan of Chomsky but manufacturing consent via faux progressive establishment liberalism is blindingly obvious when it comes to transactivism.

The Guardian and the BBC are more to blame, not less.

SpaceCannotBeLeftBlank · 18/10/2018 15:06

I feel that we must tackle the immediate arguments and at the same time look behind the noise, and question exactly where these things are really coming from, and why

I agree. There have been some quite loony conspiracy theories doing the rounds online for a while now. And while I’m no tin foil hat brigade, I do think there is a bigger agenda here. The question is: whose?

heresyandwitchcraft · 18/10/2018 15:05

I'm also less inclined to hammer the likes of the Guardian because it's become clear the extent to which the TRA machine has been effective. We have a political culture that we're all responsible for and we've allowed social media to become the modern day equivalent of the stocks. An unthinking comment can result in worldwide vilification of private individuals - no trial, no investigation, just instant demonisation. TRAs have capitalised on this.

No. The Guardian deserves a right bollocking. I think TRAs are actually a product of leftist-endorsed identity politics and misunderstood intersectionality themselves. As Rose of Dawn noted, why is it that TRAs seem to be ideologically aligned with the far-left? How does that relate to the Guardian (who are also pretty left, what with people like Owen Jones travelling in first class with Jess Bradley and toasting luxury communism)? This isn't a random group of people who have hijacked a "free thinking" institution. The rot of toxic purity politics and "punch a TERF Nazi" was already there. TRAs are more like a byproduct. With trans ideology it is easier for ordinary people to point out that their claims that a man is a woman are absurd. Like Lisa Muggeridge clearly notes, the media class and elite institutions have created a little bubble for themselves of people who share the same background and education. They pretend to speak for the "ordinary folks" but cannot not hear the cries from vulnerable people, especially women. This is exactly why charities like Amnesty, are falling for the same crap - their ostensibly "left-wing" way of thinking already aligns at some level with the extreme "I identify as the most marginalized of all people, and if you disagree you're a bigot" rhetoric of TRAs. I think they share the same schools of thought. It's not deliberately malicious, but it's not actually benefiting anyone except the people who want to feel good about themselves because they want to be seen as morally superior. Open debate and investigation of controversial issues should not be labelled "right-wing".

I think the "leftists" need to wake the fuck up to the fact that their behaviour and blindness to defending actual liberal principles like free speech, freedom of consciousness, freedom of assembly, and listening to the concerns of normal people risks us all falling into a very dark place indeed.

This is why I find this battle so important - it is literally about the re-definition in society of the fundamental facts of human life. We are in a ridiculous place of arguing about the existence of reproductive SEX - the process that gave birth to every single one of us. If we cannot talk about this openly and honestly, then we have NO hope of defending truth. Absolutely NONE. We should not have gotten into a position where the Guardian begrudgingly acknowledges that biological sex still exists and that it matters!

The fact that "leftist" thinkers in important institutions cannot acknowledge the basic differences between males and females is actually the most disturbing thing I have ever witnessed. Totalitarianism doesn't even begin to cut it.

Honestly.

I think this is what then spurs on the political polarization, because everyone who hasn't been brainwashed completely can SEE that men are not the same as women, but only "right wing" people will say it out loud. So more people start listening to the "right." The clashes get worse, people keep getting frustrated, and you get protest votes because the thinking class are so disconnected from the rest of society.

It is not just the TRAs we need to worry about. It is the whole system, and the quasi-religious demand for political orthodoxy which has given rise to this insanity. In my view, we need to start with the so-called "left," get everyone back to basics, and all come back to the middle where we can talk to each other again.

Because if these people can be so completely blind as to the importance of biological SEX, then they can basically make anything up. And that's dangerous as FUCK.

I see this all as an argument over much more than just sex/gender or left/right. It's about authoritarianism versus liberalism, how we can listen to each other, talk to each other, and live together in a pluralistic society. It's about how our institutions are working or failing. It's about how we can get to a place where we all acknowledge that each one of us will look at the world slightly differently. It's about how we actually treat women and minorities. It's about the whole facts versus feelings question. And who knows what the influence is of any forces trying to significantly impact our democratic processes.

All I know is that I think the trans demands versus female rights debate is symbolic of something much deeper that afflicts our society right now. Women and vulnerable people are always at risk of getting fucked over. That's why I REALLY care.

FlowersAndHerts · 18/10/2018 15:04

How come legislation is being pushed through which is not widely supported (understatement) and the public has never asked for? ... Because someone is throwing money at it. It didn’t appear out of nowhere.
Has this been answered anywhere? It's weird about this legislation. There hasn't been a general push for it, yet suddenly it's here. Why? (There's probably a thread on it, but I've not been here long.)

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 18/10/2018 15:03

Journalism has changed dramatically from my day. There are far fewer paid jobs now. Subs (or sub editors) correct spelling/grammatical errors as well as ones of fact, plus tighten up waffle and cut to length. There are hardly any subs now, and I notice the difference.

Many smaller sites don't pay professionals. Instead they use enthusiastic amateurs who are only too pleased to provide free content just for a byline.

Then there's the intern issue. Anyone who can afford to work for nothing in central London is immensely privileged. The working class women (and men) who got into journalism decades ago wouldn't stand a chance.

The advent of student loans changed priorities. Who, these days, would study History of Art? Philosophy? Or Journalism?
The young want to know their debt will equip them for a career. I suspect that only those from certain backgrounds, or with contacts, are willing to take such a high stakes gamble. There seems to be a lot more overt nepotism now.

RosaNullaSpina · 18/10/2018 14:54

Fantastic posts here, so great to read. Thank you. I have been reading Mumsnet FWR for a few months and it is/has been so informative.

I was also extremely disappointed in the Guardian and BBC. I am furious at them now and will never go back to reading/clicking/watching either. I too have taken out subs to The Times and Spectator.

I think Labour has always excluded women, except for brief windows in history. When Labour and the Trade Union movement got underway, they excluded women then. All the ‘working men’s clubs’ etc.

I am politically homeless. I was never and will never vote Tory/LibDems/Greens etc, but I will never vote Labour again either.

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