Oh, wise and wonderful women of feminism chat

It's good - but I wouldn't expect it (or anything anyone says) to convince him.

Arguing with v woke people can be like arguing with creationists, unfortunately. It's a belief system.

80% desistance rate.

Often caused by other mental health issues, family issues or societal gender stereotyping and pressures on young girls to look/act a particular way and vv.

Social contagion - Rapid onset gender dysphoria - 4000% in girls seeking help at Gender Identity Clinics. That's a 4000% increase in in the risk of young women having the flesh carved from their arms/thighs to make a false penis, and double mastectomies, and hysterectomy.

We should change society and dismantle gender stereotypes, not medicalise and change children's and young people's bodies.

I think you have to break it down. That trans people are protected under the Equalities Act, that it’s not the case that people are worried about the existence of transgender people, that it’s the conflation of gender with sex and the possibility of making it easier for anyone to ask the law to change the sex on their birth certificate without actually needing to transition which is causing the conflict between women’s rights and the rights of transgender people. A small minority of people might genuinely be transphobic but the actions of groups like Fair Play for Women are highlighting the issues and calling for people to respond to the consultation on this issue. They are not inciting hatred. On the children issue - the sad fact is that predatory paedophiles are known to go to great lengths to gain access to potential victims - our decades of safeguarding laws and policies are partly the product of this knowledge. Highlighting the risk of a legal loophole that such people could exploit (If it was possible to more easily self ID as a particular sex without making any kind of transition) is not inciting hatred it’s just sadly pointing out facts. It’s bad for transgender people too - that’s why the proposed changes to the GRA are flawed.

Perhaps point that gender dysphoric boys given no medical treatment mostly stop being dysphoric but often turn out to be gay. In contrast,q medical transition for boys results in a permanently childlike penis and loss of sexual function. Let him consider that.

Ah! Thank you, I assumed was a MN term! Whoops

Oatmilk Wikipedia says "Reverse ferret is a phrase used predominantly within the British media to describe a sudden reversal in an organisation's editorial line on a certain issue. Generally, this will involve no acknowledgement of the previous position."

Yay! Welcome back to rational debate, Guardian!

Quote: “But misogyny too must be challenged. Gender identity does not cancel out sex. Women’s oppression by men has a physical basis, and to deny the relevance of biology when considering sexual inequality is a mistake. The struggle for women’s empowerment is ongoing. Reproductive freedoms are under threat and the #MeToo campaign faces a backlash. Women’s concerns about sharing dormitories or changing rooms with “male-bodied” people must be taken seriously. These are not just questions of safety but of dignity and fairness.“

I read through the GIRES piece on the GRA and was really interested to note that most of the places who have made self ID easier are hardly well known for their positive approach to women’s rights. And Scandinavian approach is pretty measured.

Sorry to be ignorant (and don’t want to derail) but what is a ferret? And then a reverse ferret?

REVERSE FERRET OMG - the Guardian has seen sense? Really?

Is it the Hadley effect? She's fab. Or the Butterfly irresponsible broadcasting of child suicide effect?? Or is it just that everyone finds Owen Jones insufferable now, even his own party?

Off to read

Can't wait for Mr1984 to exclaim that the Guardian editorial is transphobic and on the wrong side of history.

Holy fuck! Up until now any comments that didn't entirely endorse trans ideology were deleted on The Guardian website. I gave up commenting years ago.

And now we have a REVERSE FERRET!

Wtf is going on?

I'd go with the question asked of Owen Jones. Would your gay friend perform cunnilingus on a transman? Because if he wouldn't it's him that's transphobic.

All together now.

REVERSE FERRET

Sound the klaxon!!!!

The Guardian just ran a
REVERSE FERRET
REVERSE FERRET
REVERSE FERRET
REVERSE FERRET
REVERSE FERRET

In case you missed it when I said it the first time
REVERSE FERRET

ferret

The Guardian has just come out (wonders will never cease!) with a GC-friendly "Guardian View" leader here - you could use that:

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/the-guardian-view-on-the-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide

Yes. Good tactic to ask questions rather than state arguments. Then query their responses with examples and more questions.

On general points outside of the GRA/ FPFW leaflets:
There was also that article in a gay magazine that claimed that gay men were just failed transwomen. Wonder if your friend agrees.

The ultimate question is always to ask that if your friend believes TWAW then would he have sex with a pre-op trans man?

Do you still meet in person?

You could feign ignorance and ask him what makes it transphobic in his eyes. Some women might be persuaded by the weakness of the argument.

But if you don't know him in real life it might be worth just to unfriend this mysoginist fellow.

I'm a sneekit fucker. 😈

And repeat the highlights with innocent comments 'is this the bit?'

Maybe repost a shot of the leaflet and ask which bit to complain about? Then the others will have to read it (and find naff all to cry about).

Naughty Fekko, but brilliant.