So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

I agree - think the lack of a word for adult human female is real problem.

But there isn’t a lack. There is woman. It’s worked fine since the word was created thanks.

Just woman without the cis is fine

*Females" is also how MRAs and incels have referred to women for ages, isn't it? Because "woman" was something nice/desirable, so women who weren't nice were "females."

Bit of an interesting overlap, isn't it?

That's a fair point. I was thinking of its use as an adjective, in the context where it's necessary to distinguish between male and female people. But yes, I completely accept it's a real issue and that MRAs creppily refer to women as "females" as a noun.

Some of the issue is that many GC feminists consider ciswomen to be a horrific insult, so I've avoided using it.

No. Female can be used to identify lots of different things. Like animals or one end of a cable from another. We are talking about adult humans here, not connectors or cats.

I'm not inventing these defintions, I am providing them. I agree - think the lack of a word for adult human female is real problem. I entirely understand why transgender activists want to talk about pregnant people (to be inclusive of transmen) but the land grab on the traditional definition combined with the pretence that sex isn't real is endangering the rights of female sex. Sex, particularly in medical and reproductive circumstances, is fundamental.

Currently we have by the new human rights approach:

Women divided into ciswoman and transwomen.
Men divided into cismen and transmen.

There really does need to be a word in this new vocabulary which includes ciswoman and transmen, for example. This is where the issue lies - if we recognise the rights of transwoman, where does that leave us with a word for that group? Obvs, the GC approach is "transwomen are not women," which keeps things simple but does not recognise them as who they know themsleves to be.

I have not solution to this at all.

If you really want to have fun on twitter, ask this question (I have, with no response). What is a non-transphobic word for a category which includes transwomen and cismen?

A long time ago I wrote an SF story in which gender was no longer an issue, and sex distinctions become unimportant in part because embryos could be grown in vats. It was set on a generation ship where there wasn't space for the reproductive technology, so all of a sudden biology was important. The characters started referring to themselves "imps" and "jests" (impregnators and gestators) and a sex-based hierachy slowly reestablished itself (the baddies were effectively MRAs).

"Females" is also how MRAs and incels have referred to women for ages, isn't it? Because "woman" was something nice/desirable, so women who weren't nice were "females."

Bit of an interesting overlap, isn't it?

I think the word "female" does the job you are looking for in most cases.

No. Female can be used to identify lots of different things. Like animals or one end of a cable from another.
We are talking about adult humans here, not connectors or cats.

DJ you literally have no word for the two basic units of human reproduction and you think you're in the right. Mkay.

But what word do you propose we use for adult female humans if you have redefined 'woman' to mean something else? And what, exactly, will be your new definition of the word 'woman'?

I honestly don't see any point in providing the gender-based definition of woman yet again, but I'll try. And it's not "my" definition. I think the word "female" does the job you are looking for in most cases.

If you accept gender identity is real, then the definition of woman is straightforward - a person who knows they are a women. If you don't, then it's not going to make any sense.

For more on the widely-accepted concept of gender identity, I recommend this ECHR document, page 3. If you don't believe people can know they are men or women, and sometimes that doesn't match their body's sex, you'll never accept that transgender people should have the rights this whole thread was about - the right to be recognised as people who have their gender identity.

As a GC feminist, you consider women to be "adult human female" and you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence; others disagree. That's what this whole debate is about. You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Please don't try to tell me what I think. We'll get further if I tell you what I think and you tell me what you think.

I am sorry I mis-typified your position. Acknowledging that gender incongruence is real medical condition requires a person to acknowledge that gender identity is real (it means an incongruent gender identity). I didn't think GC feminists believed that gender identity was real, hence my assumption you didn't think GI was a real condition. See here.

You don’t seem to have been able to link to any of theses definitions or explained what relevance they have to U.K. law Dadjoke.

You have more or less said that some people believe they are apples, some people believe they are pears. If you don’t believe you are a pear you must be an apple, but the concept of apple and pear is subjective.

It’s easier to understand people talking about their star sign.

I understand the concept of gender as defined by the WHO and quoted earlier, but your definition seems completely circular and meaningless.

Can anyone (DadJoke?) explain why dysphoria about genitals needs to be treated with hormonal medication and perhaps genital surgery and breast removal or addition, but dysphoria about other parts of the body are treated by therapy and perhaps some psychiatric medication? Why do people with gender dysphoria have to get treatment that changes their body? Why not concentrate on helping them to accept themselves? Seems a bit unethical to me

You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

The meaning of the word woman is an adult of the female sex. We all know what a woman is and what the female sex is. Every single person who has existed on the planet came out of a woman.

It really is extraordinarily silly to try to claim that there is any other way of being a woman.

Paraphrasing gender identity definitions of man and woman per a wide range of international bodies, all men share the quality of knowing they are men, and women know they are women.

Men know they are men because they have male bodies. Women know they are women because they have female bodies. A bit like children learning whether they're boys or girls as I mentioned earlier. HTH.

You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Some people think the world is flat. It doesn’t make it so.

In other words, there is strong evidence that gender dysphoric (trans) children would exist regardless of whether there were gender stereotypes or not.

Where is this evidence?

What do you mean by a 'similar, physical, root cause'? Are you suggesting that their bodies are actually defective?

I meant the gender dysphoria has a physical, genetic cause, that's all. Whether you thing they are "defective" or not depends on whether you are a GC feminist or not.

My response was regarding gender dysphoria being similar to other dysphoric conditions, like the people who think one of their limbs doesn't belong to them. This is unrelated to being gender critical because in this instance I am not talking only about gender dysphoria, but also about the other group. So do you think that someone who thinks their left leg should not belong to them should have it amputated because their perception must reflect reality? That their body is actually defective because they have a leg that they think they shouldn't have?

What exactly do you mean by a physical root cause?

DadJoke
As a GC feminist, you consider women to be "adult human female" and you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence; others disagree. That's what this whole debate is about. You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Please don't try to tell me what I think. We'll get further if I tell you what I think and you tell me what you think.

In this case, your perception of what I think is wrong. You said: you don't think there is such a thing as gender incongruence. I have never said such a thing. I recognise that gender dysphoria exists. I have discussed this on here with actual sufferers of the condition, in an effort to better understand what it is.

I do not think the condition is best treated using powerful and irreversible medication and/or surgical intervention, unless all other avenues for relief of symptoms have been explored and been found ineffective.

I do not think that gender dysphoria is a normal variation of the human condition, like being gay or being left handed. People who are gay or left-handed do not require any medical treatment to 'cure' them, but simply require society to accept gay people and left-handed people. People suffering from gender dysphoria demand that they should receive medication to enable themselves to be 'their true self'.

You think women = sex; the others think woman = gender.

Well, yes. I'm just going by the definition which has served us well for hundreds, or even thousands of years. This is still how it is defined in modern dictionaries (adult female human). If you, and others, want to change the definition, then fine, see if you can change it - words do change their definitions over time. But what word do you propose we use for adult female humans if you have redefined 'woman' to mean something else? And what, exactly, will be your new definition of the word 'woman'?

I know you don't accept this definition, but there really isn't any point in asking for it again from me

Unfortunately your definition doesn't have much practical purpose because it doesn’t accommodate people who don’t believe they have any gender (whether they are GC or believe they are agender or something else) and doesn’t accommodate people who suffer from gender dysphoria, have a GRC, but fully agree that they are their natal sex.

You then also need to explain the practical purpose of dividing people according to their individual beliefs about their gender.

Women have fought long and hard to be regarded as individuals, not controlled by concepts of gender. Where we need to be distinguished from men, it’s because of the clear practical unavoidable consequences of sex, not gender.

Again, please could you explain the gender qualities shared by women and trans women that are not shared by men and trans men; and the gender qualities shared by men and trans women not shared by women and trans women.
Paraphrasing gender identity definitions of man and woman per a wide range of international bodies, all men share the quality of knowing they are men, and women know they are women.

Men who are gender incongruence are transmen, women who are gender incongruent are transwomen. Most men and most women are not gender incongruent.

I know you don't accept this definition, but there really isn't any point in asking for it again from me.

Without the existence of a control world where gender stereotypes don’t exist it’s very difficult to say that.

Can you think of any cultural changes which would stop any other form of dysphoria? That wouldn't change if there were no gender stereotypes (and I would love to be in a world where that were true). That's my analogy. I can't really persuade you if you don't agree with that line of reasoning.

I think you need to be careful branding everyone with the same brush. I follow a few trans people on twitter who are just as outraged by the things happening as anyone else. One speaks out a lot about self identity as a horrible idea. She has spoken out about the cycling trans woman's win.

I think the reality is many trans woman are happy with the current system, it's not perfect but they accept it and speak out against much of tech issues Mumsnet discusses.

Of course there is another group who are never happy. That cyclist for example wasn't happy that one of her competitors didn't congratulate her, when she sent a tweet to apologise and congratulate her she rebuked her ... I can't remember what she actually said now, but she still wasn't happy with the apology. I think that's an example of how some people are never happy.

But it's not everyone, it's just so many are scared to speak up.

Sorry, “Men and trans men”.

Basically if people honestly want to legally divide human beings along gender lines, why?

the others think woman = gender

Again, please could you explain the gender qualities shared by women and trans women that are not shared by men and trans men; and the gender qualities shared by men and trans women not shared by women and trans women.

In other words, there is strong evidence that gender dysphoric (trans) children would exist regardless of whether there were gender stereotypes or not.

Without the existence of a control world where gender stereotypes don’t exist it’s very difficult to say that.

Part of the problem is that without any definition of trans or gender it’s very difficult to pin down what anyone is talking about or generalise study results.

merrymouse Whether or not feelings of dysphoria are genetic has no bearing on whether somebody with dysphoria is correct in their belief that they share features that are unique to the opposite sex.

Yes, I agree, as I stated above. However, it has a bearing on the question "would trans children exist if there were no gender stereotypes?"