So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

They want the right to be recognised in law under their gender identity in a more straighforward way than with the GRA

And why does gender identity need to be recognised in law? Why only male and female - why not non-binary, Pan gender, a gender? What does any if this have to do with the law? There is already recognition that trans people as a group should not suffer discrimination because they are trans.

If you do, then that definition of woman is really very straightforward

Its not a definition of woman though? Circular definitions are not definitions. I have wanted someone to come up with this for so long, but it always just seems to be an 'anyone who identifies as a woman' answer. But, you need to define woman to be able to identify as a woman!

Vixxxy If you don't think gender identity is real, then everything you've said makes perfect philosophical sense. If you do, then that definition of woman is really very straightforward

You can only experience misogyny if people think you're actually female. Very few men who identify as women pass, though many fool themselves that they do, as witness Reddit groups on the topic.

If you send a CV in with a typical women's name on it, you are less likely to get certain jobs. Similar reasoning applies to scientific papers, transwoman or otherwise. Transwomen suffer from misogyny and transphobia, but the transphobia hugely trumps the misogyyny. Non-passing transwomen are subject to ridicule and abuse from everyone including GC feminists on mumsnet.

I'll say it again. They want the right to be recognised in law under their gender identity in a more straighforward way than with the GRA, with all that entails.

What do you mean by 'widely accepted'? They use the definition of gender identity from the Yogyakarta Principles. These were written by a bunch of self-selected lawyers and academics, and have no legal standing. They may be widely accepted amongst transactivists, but not in the rest of the world.

By "widely accepted" I mean accepted by the EHRC, many democratic governments (66 states in 2008), and the UN is heading that way, too. Basically, and I am sure this is no coincidence, states in which homosexuality and same sex marriage is legal accept the principles, states which deny gay rights oppose them. Russia, the Arab League and Trinidad and Tobago are not big fans, nor are anti-choice Catholic groups.

That's aside from the almost universal acceptance in the medical professionals in western democracies that gender identity is real.

You can say it's not real, but your suggestion it's a fringe view is not plausible. I suppose you could say all these medical professionals are also delusional, or you could accept that there is a fight going on over the definition of woman. It's interesting to see this in action - the wiki definition is "adult human female" plus transwomen and certain intersex people bolted on.

Here is another gender identity defintion from the APA.

Gender Identity: A person’s deeply felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or male; a girl, a woman, or female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics. Since gender identity is internal, a person’s gender identity is not necessarily visible to others. “Affirmed gender identity” refers to a person’s gender identity after coming out as TGNC or undergoing a social and/or medical transition process

If you accept gender identity is real, then the definition of woman is straightforward - a person who knows they are a women.

This is an answer I see quite often. But its a bit, nonsense as a definition. As without as meaning of 'woman' to start with, how would one 'know' they are a woman? Makes a lot more sense to explain what I mean when we take up a totally made up word, as its a lot easier to show the absurdities when its a word noone is familiar with at all. A floompumflort.

What is a floompumflort?
Someone that is a floompumflort.
But what is a floompumflort?
Someone that knows they are a floompumflort.
So what is a feature of a floompumflort?
Being a floompumflort.

And round and round. Still with no actual answer of what a floompumflort is.

Circular definitions are not definitions.

I think gender dysphopria is very obviously a real condition. I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim otherwise. I do not believe 'gender identity' is anything more than personality and what stereotypes followed though. Same as I don't believe that an anorexic person is fat, just because they suffer dysphoria.

It should not be possible to change sex on official documents such as drivers licences etc. In reality if a girl or woman altered security, that a male was in a female space such a toilet, all he has to do is show his changed drivers licence and claim that he is a woman. No one expects someone to carry their birth certificate around with them, even if it does become illegal to change one’s sex on birth certificates, there still needs to be a policy that does not allow the changing of sex on other official documents, such as driving licences. It needs to happen in order that girls and women can easily get males removed from female only spaces. Removing sex from official documents makes that harder not easier.

It is necessary to collect data on biological sex for a number of things, the pay gap, crimes, which sex is under/over represented in various occupations etc.

Males who believe/feel/claim to be females do not experience misogyny, the word refers to females, which males are not. What they experience is homophobia, many men assume they are a type of gay man, even though many are actually heterosexual men. Homophobia does come from a hatred of women, i.e. the idea that men are letting the sex of males down by not being heterosexual ‘masculine’ men, but it is not the same as being hated for being an actual woman. If they want to combat the negativity men direct at them, they need to work on making men more accepting of homosexual and non-masculine men. Not dumping these men into the category of women and expecting us to pretend they are not men anymore.

I think transwomen and non-transwomen do share a lot in common aside from their gender identity- structural misogyny affects both groups, for example.

You can only experience misogyny if people think you're actually female. Very few men who identify as women pass, though many fool themselves that they do, as witness Reddit groups on the topic.

The great majority of men who identify as women are potentially the targets of homophobia, not misogyny, although there appears to be little evidence that transwomen in the UK are being attacked. The opposite is definitely true when it comes to murder.

As for transwomen and non-transwomen! You're just taking the piss, Joke. Think about what you're saying. Non-transwomen covers everyone. My sons and my grandson are non-transwomen, for fucks sakes.

structural misogyny affects both groups, for example.

Only for the very, very small number of people who ‘pass’ as female and keep their trans identity a secret and are facing discrimination because they are genuinely perceived as female.

Trans women face discrimination for being gender non conforming. That isn’t to minimise the discrimination they face, but it isn’t the same.

Women have long suffered discrimination because of preconceptions about sex. If the data isn’t relevant, why declare it? Why can’t we all keep our sex private?

I think you have the full backing of the trans lobby here. Except where it is relevant, including your sex or gender on ID and other forms should only be done if it's necessary, for medical, inclusivity and crime (perpetrator and victum) reporting purposes. You don't need sex or gender or similar markers on passports driving licenses or council tax bills. I am all for CVs with names and genders removed, for example.

However, if it is really necessary to collect information on biological sex, that information is necessary regardless of identity

I completely agree. The NHS need that info, for example. Pretending it's not real can kill people.

If it is accepted that ‘woman’ now has two meanings, one referring to sex and one referring to gender, you are still left with the problem that legal language needs to be more specific, and while there are clear reasons to recognise the sex group ‘women’ a member of that group doesn’t necessarily share anything with the group of people who believe their gender is female

Yes absolutely - the law is a mess, and TRAs are trying to conflate sex and gender to gain access to all sex segregated spaces. Though I think transwomen and non-transwomen do share a lot in common aside from their gender identity- structural misogyny affects both groups, for example.

Nearly 350 posts now, and nobody has come up with a single right that transpeople don't have but the rest of us do.

It is possible to accept that some people suffer distress at not being biologically female or male and to take steps to alleviate their distress

How about psychological support, rather than telling them that their delusion is real?

For more on the widely-accepted concept of gender identity, I recommend this ECHR document, page 3.

What do you mean by 'widely accepted'? They use the definition of gender identity from the Yogyakarta Principles. These were written by a bunch of self-selected lawyers and academics, and have no legal standing. They may be widely accepted amongst transactivists, but not in the rest of the world.

Why do you think this is your business, DJ?

Because he is a man and therefore very important.
Also he once wrote a story. A story damm it

Wrote not published! Why is that? Are you down on SF? I love Le Guin, Atwood and Leckie.

Well done, you can name some women who have written SF. I’ve read plenty thanks.

But ‘but I made up some stuff with my mind’ simply isn’t relevant.

Women divided into ciswoman and transwomen.
Men divided into cismen and transmen.

There are already some great words that include all these people - ‘humans’ and ‘people’.

It really isn’t clear why it would ever be either necessary, desirable or useful to segregate people according to their subjective feelings about gender.

If it is accepted that ‘woman’ now has two meanings, one referring to sex and one referring to gender, you are still left with the problem that legal language needs to be more specific, and while there are clear reasons to recognise the sex group ‘women’ a member of that group doesn’t necessarily share anything with the group of people who believe their gender is female.

It is possible to accept that some people suffer distress at not being biologically female or male and to take steps to alleviate their distress (more unisex facilities?) without effectively wiping out all recognition that biological men and women exist.

To return to the original question, it still isn’t clear what rights trans people don’t already have. If sex on a passport is so irrelevant that it is a matter of identity rather than fact, why does that information need to be on a passport?

Women have long suffered discrimination because of preconceptions about sex. If the data isn’t relevant, why declare it? Why can’t we all keep our sex private?

However, if it is really necessary to collect information on biological sex, that information is necessary regardless of identity.

Transwomen are not women keeps things simple, also keeps male paedophile rapists out of women’s prisons, keeps fully intact men out of women’s changing rooms, keeps rachel mackinnon out of women’s cycling races. You do see that don’t you? There’s nothing to benefit women with twaw. Nothing at all.

There’s no difficulty. We’re women. Can you explain why you think you get a vote about what WE are called, and call ourselves? Why do you think this is your business, DJ?

Obvs, the GC approach is "transwomen are not women," which keeps things simple but does not recognise them as who they know themsleves to be.

They know that they are not women, which is why they have a constant quest for validation as women. Women don't need to do that. Does anyone actually believe that transwomen are women? If they do, what definition of women is being used?

Oh and by talking about a SF story you have published you really aren’t doing yourself any favours.

Wrote not published! Why is that? Are you down on SF? I love Le Guin, Atwood and Leckie.

I mentioned in in the contex of the difficulty of finding the vocabulary.

There really does need to be a word in this new vocabulary which includes ciswoman and transmen, for example.

Why don't we just keep the word 'woman' for adults who were born female? Why do you feel it's necessary to redefine words we already have

In answer to the original question: They want the right to legally change sex and by-pass safeguarding, violate female’s rights to privacy and enter all of our spaces, groups, and programs set-up to combat the inequality women face, to compete against us in sports and to have everyone submit to their demands we pretend they are someone they are not. There are not any other right these men don’t have that other men don’t have.

The question should be why should anyone have the legal right to change sex when in reality they can never biologically change sex? Why should a sub-set of men be permitted to by-pass safeguarding, violate females privacy, be included in programs for women, compete against us in sports, and force others to pretend they are something they are not, just because they feel/believe they are women?

They should have the right to believe whatever they want, to dress however they want, to not be subjected to discrimination in employment, housing etc, and not to experience violence etc. Those that have dysphoria about their sexed body should be supported to work through those mental problems and accept their bodies as they are. That can all be achieved without anyone being granted the legal right to change sex, which deprives females of our sex based rights. The original 2004 GRA was a sexist and homophobic law, that enabled a legal fiction and negatively impacts females. It should never have been passed, and would not have been passed if we lived in less sexist and homophobic society, which was actually interested in effectively combating sexism and homophobia. And which actually provided decent mental health services.

Passing such a law has also led to MRA’s/TRA’s feeling entitled to mansplain how women should accept our own erasure, and allow males to redefine the words female; girl and women for the good of men. Same old male game plan, to control women and deprive us of rights to say no to men, it’s just dressed up in new clothes.

Perhaps I should have written a bit more in my last post.

You don't have to be a believer in gender identity to acknowledge that gender dysphoria is a real condition, just as you don't have to believe in god to acknowledge that religions are real and for many people it is an important part of their life.

A belief in gender identity is just that, a belief. It is like a religion, and you have the right to hold any religious belief that you want, but you do not have the right to compel me to share your religious belief. You do not have the right to redefine my identity in order to fit in your belief system. You do not have the right to compel me to use your new definition for 'woman' when I wish to continue to use the current one.

Woman is fine then it's generous of us to use transwoman tbh, but we've been prepared to do that. If you don't like transwoman it could be transgender male?

I didn't think GC feminists believed that gender identity was real, hence my assumption you didn't think GI was a real condition.

You don't have to be a believer in gender identity to acknowledge that gender dysphoria is a real condition.

Obvs, the GC approach is "transwomen are not women," which keeps things simple but does not recognise them as who they know themsleves to be.

So women have to bend their language to conform to delusional people?

Oh and by talking about a SF story you have published you really aren’t doing yourself any favours.