So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

And anyway, no one is questioning the existence of trans women and men.
What I feel is that trans men and women should be free to live their lives however they feel comfortable free from abuse and discrimination.
But their right to do that does not trump the right of women and girls to be safe.

All the trans people I know have always been lovely people. They have always wanted to just get on with their lives without staring, pointing and much worse. I don't question their existence.

The question is other than the right to live their lives free from abuse and discrimination, which is all anyone wants really, what rights are we talking about? No one seems to want to say.

The right to not constantly have their rights and very existence questioned in thread after thread after thread by bored internet users with no actual stake in the answer?

All women and girls have a massive stake in the answer.

Dinosaurs

No one is clear, are they?
Whole thing is ridiculous.

So DadJoke, why would you allow transwomen access to female spaces? Why shouldn't men be allowed access too?

Dinosauratemydaffodils I am so sorry to hear this happened to you. What a terrible piece of shit that man was. Thank you for sharing this.

I can't think of any non-biological reason for segregating by sex. Can you suggest any?

I can't think of any - they will all arise from biological differences, even if they aren't direct.

So, for example, in a rape crisis centre, there might be women who don't want to be in the same room as a person with a penis, because they want a safe space away from anyone physically capable of raping them. Or, perhaps a woman wishes to be examined by a non-male gynaecologist.

Does this count as biological?

Just as a for example, if it was demonstrated conclusively that there was no increase in violence against women as a result of transwoman in female spaces, would you still oppose their presence? I am guessing that you still would.

Because it's not that simple. I have ptsd and amongst other things it's triggered by adam's apples. I don't want them in any space which I consider myself vulnerable for a couple of reasons. A man delivered dc1, I knew he was male but in a panicked moment, seeing his adam's apple from between my legs I lost it. If the student midwife and dh hadn't grabbed a leg each, I would have put a foot through it. Having read my notes before hand and even offered to get a female colleague out of bed, he was totally understanding but I felt rubbish. It's hard enough navigating life avoiding looking between the collar and chin of anyone who presents as male without feeling I have to be on guard everywhere.

That's ignoring the fact that women only swimming sessions saved my life in the aftermath. Turning up with my flatmate, still covered in the marks of his violence and spending time with women (mostly older or from other cultures) who got it without me having to say a word made me feel human again. That perhaps I wasn't as broken or as useless or worthless as I thought I was. Had it been mixed sex or had adam's apples been present at best I would have left, at worse it would have been the final straw.

I've worked with girls who couldn't cope with fully clothed male bodied social workers, policemen and teachers because of what was done to them.

I don't believe everyone with a male body is a threat, I have a son, a husband, I had a father but how can I tell who is? I opened the door to the man who raped me, I'd met him before when he came around to the flat professionally, in the sort of job where your parents tell you trust them (especially when you're white, middle class and Daddy drinks with their bosses) so when he came back a few hours later without his colleague how was I meant to know what he wanted.

The right to not constantly have their rights and very existence questioned

Philosophers have been troubled by the question of existence for thousands of years. Surely the existence of anything is allowed to be questioned?

If you mean that transpeople just want to go about their day to day lives without being abused or harmed then they already have that right. As does everyone else.

There are six countries where self-ID has been implemented

Six countries that say that being male or female has something to do with your 'identity'. Six countries that want to separate their citizens into pink and blue people. Have any of these countries explained why this segregation is necessary?

The right to not constantly have their rights and very existence questioned in thread after thread after thread by bored internet users with no actual stake in the answer?

There are six countries where self-ID has been implemented, so we'll know soon enough if their is in a increased risk for women.

But if a man who says he is a woman assaults a woman in previously single sex spaces, it will be recorded as a crime committed by a female and therefore not recorded as male violence, so we won't know. That's if it even gets as far as the police or court stage.

I wonder, then, if there will be an increase in woman on woman crimes reported?

There are six countries where self-ID has been implemented, so we'll know soon enough if their is in a increased risk for women.

But if a man who says he is a woman assaults a woman in previously single sex spaces, it will be recorded as a crime committed by a female and therefore not recorded as male violence, so we won't know. That's if it even gets as far as the police or court stage.

The evidence suggests that TW are at a greater risk in male spaces, than women are from TW in female spaces, but both risks are very small.

The evidence suggests that all men are more at risk in male spaces. Some men may be more at risk than others - can they all use female spaces?

Just as a for example, if it was demonstrated conclusively that there was no increase in violence against women as a result of transwoman in female spaces, would you still oppose their presence?

I would be wondering why men were being excluded from the space.

Once you accept that sex and gender are different, it's easier to put forward a nuanced argument for sex-based safe spaces.

I can't think of any non-biological reason for segregating by sex. Can you suggest any?

RaininSummer Thanks for your answer!

I don't think anyone should have to get changed in front of other naked people if they don't want to. I considered unisex facilities to be a solution (our local swimming pool has these with private a family cubicles) but I understand lots of women find these unsafe, too.

But it’s not just about being attacked. It’s about not being expected to undress in the presence of men. Women understand why this is a problem.

Dadjoke - it isn't just actual tangible violence which is the problem (although since that is real and not imagined, it very much is a problem). - what about discomfort getting changed in front of male bodies, the potential for leering and other threatening sexual behaviour, the fact that most people do not want their young children sharing space with men they don't know, the fact that some women have been attacked beofre and would be very traumatised in some places.....

Hamster - well said.

some of those countries have a very poor record of women's rights, so I'm not holding on to that much. Plus, unless you know all the ins and outs of their law it's impossible to say. I have recently found out that Ireland's self ID law is hedged with a lot of caveats - basically, if embarrassment or loss of privacy is a risk, then it's back to biological sex, so off you pop men.

Are you going to risk the dignity, privacy and safety of the females in your family, to see if that little experiment works? One trans identifying man sexually assaulted FOUR women in a jail. How many women have to be assaulted, before we say enough is enough? Do you have a number in mind?

I wasn't suggesting an experiment. I was asking if your view was dependent on their being provable increased harm. Is it?

In answer to your specific question, having spent time in Nordic countries and Germany, yes, I am quite happy with mixed changing facilities for me and my family, which offer the option of privacy but again, that's entirely irrelevant.

Prisoners should never, ever be incarcerated with potential victims. That was not a failure of policy, that was simply a failure to follow policy. My view is that sex offenders of either gender should be separately incarcerated, and they almost always are.

There are six countries where self-ID has been implemented, so we'll know soon enough if their is in a increased risk for women.

Yes, i would in certain spaces. I don’t particularly want to get undressed in front of a male, whatever his beliefs about himself or whatever he’s wearing. I don’t think males should be in women’s rape crisis counselling groups or refuges. It’s not just about violence.

Just as a for example, if it was demonstrated conclusively that there was no increase in violence against women as a result of transwoman in female spaces, would you still oppose their presence? I am guessing that you still would.

Are you going to risk the dignity, privacy and safety of the females in your family, to see if that little experiment works? One trans identifying man sexually assaulted FOUR women in a jail. How many women have to be assaulted, before we say enough is enough? Do you have a number in mind?

IWishIHadEvenMorePlasticTat

What are they scared of in this situation? My inference is that they are scared of male violence. So why is it up to women to give up their spaces to solve the problem? If trans people live in fear of male violence, it's the violent men need sorting out isn't it?

You hit the nail on the head. It's not women who need to sort the issue out, it's intolerant men. The times I have been subject to violence/assaults it's ALWAYS been at the hands of men.

Sex-based segregation is not just important, it's ESSENTIAL, and it's not up to women to sort out/provide spaces for GNC men. It's men who need to do that - but the TRAs with their "gender feelz" are generally a selfish mysoginistic bunch who don't see this as THEIR problem.