So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

I am trying to avoid using "woman" in a contest which definitively excludes transwoman because that's what the whole mumsnet GC / TRA debate devolves into every single time.

So you, a man, feel that it’s appropriate to tell all the women on here, what a woman is? Seriously? Why don’t you care that women find it offensive that someone with a penis is calling themselves a woman? You’re not walking a middle line. You’re telling us to put the feelings of men before the feelings of women. It doesn’t matter how you word it, that’s what you’re doing.

Wrong. There are some who have a really shit time. I understand that and I sympathise. But how dare you say they have a worse time than women. Statistically they are less likely to be killed. Less likely to be raped. Less likely to be overlooked for promotion.

Than transwomen? This isn't true based on data I've seen. What are your sources? Transwomen are more likely to suffer violence and sexual violence, and are subject to very specific abuse because they are transgender. They suffer gender based and trans-based oppression, though not oppression based on their male bodies.

Women and girls suffer from sexism every. Singke. Day. It has been proven that we are less likely to get pain relief. We have bodies that are big taken seriously - we get dismissed more. Girls are far more likely to be aborted, to the extent that some countries will now not allow the sex to be given at ultrasound. Girls suffer from FGM. We have unequal pay and unequal positions. Women who speak less in meetings than men are seen as overbearing.

This is all true. I am not sure what the relevance of it is to transwomen's rights.

Dadjoke As a transsexual person with XY chromosomes but presents in a feminine manner can you tell me how I am a woman - as per the dictionary / scientific definition?

I identify WITH women but not as a woman, does "that" make me a woman?

Because I occasionally wear makeup, or stereotypically feminine clothes (ie leggings and a top - I hate dresses), does that make me a woman?

Because I have gender dysphoria and want to alter my body / secondary sex characteristics for my own mental well being, does that make me a woman?

I'm trying to get clarification as to what you're trying to describe a woman as.... because I'm not entirely sure.

transwomen aren't women. Men can't become women. Ever.

No more than cats can become dogs.

transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

I would like to see official evidence for this. Not some blog or made-up statistics.

Otherwise, the statement I quote is a lie. Like the suicide statistics that TRAs and allies like to haul out.

As foxyliz26 said, there is a difference between "old-style" transexuals and the "new-style" transgenderists.

I think we all have sympathy with anyone who genuinely and completely wants to change sex. What seems to have popped out of nowhere is this gender business, and particularly the idea that if someone can choose gender, then it follows that they can choose which sex they are and afford themselves the "privileges" of that sex, such as the right to use the women's toilets or changing rooms or women's prison.

But if gender is a choice, then surely someone has the choice to change back, possibly midway through a stint in the toilets or changing session or in the bunk bed above a woman in prison. And that is not a right that anybody should have.

allow transwoman access to gender-appropriate bathrooms

Which is just another way of saying "I would let men use women's private spaces".

Fuck that.

Tranwomen are not women.

Women do not have penises.

Women are adult human females.

affirmative action programs which are for the benefit of all women

That would, of course, men who 'identify' as women, meaning that women would lose out. Again.

So, no.

In almost every case, transwoman should be given access to female spaces

NO

Either transwomen are women (the good, the morally reprehensible or anywhere in between) or they are not.

Yes. Now could you explain why they are women.

I could have said "ciswoman" to be absolutely sure what we were talking about

Problem is that according to Stonewall trans includes anybody who doesn't feel they have a gender which covers most of the people on this board.

PostivelyPERF I am trying to avoid using "woman" in a contest which definitively excludes transwoman because that's what the whole mumsnet GC / TRA debate devolves into every single time.

I could have said "ciswoman" to be absolutely sure what we were talking about, but many GC feminists find that offensive. I don't know where you've got the idea I think women should be forced to be examined by a person with a penis; I was giving an example at your request of where sex segregation relates to biology. I am not doing any of the things you ascribe to me at all. Rights should not be granted conditionally, because you like a particular members of a group, or because you feel sorry for people. Either transwomen are women (the good, the morally reprehensible or anywhere in between) or they are not.

My view is that sex offenders of either gender should be separately incarcerated, and they almost always are.

Very rarely the case. There are some really knowledgeable posters on here who can tell you more.

It's OK to discriminate under English law for strict purposes, and if you are discriminating to find women, then that should include transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

Wrong. There are some who have a really shit time. I understand that and I sympathise. But how dare you say they have a worse time than women. Statistically they are less likely to be killed. Less likely to be raped. Less likely to be overlooked for promotion.

Women and girls suffer from sexism every. Singke. Day. It has been proven that we are less likely to get pain relief. We have bodies that are big taken seriously - we get dismissed more. Girls are far more likely to be aborted, to the extent that some countries will now not allow the sex to be given at ultrasound. Girls suffer from FGM. We have unequal pay and unequal positions. Women who speak less in meetings than men are seen as overbearing.

I can go on all day. Do you want me to?

then that should include transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

Women face discrimination because they are expected to have children, because of the consequences of actually having children and because of the expectation that they will and should conform to sexist stereotypes.

Trans women face discrimination because they are gender non conforming and arguably face the same discrimination as trans men.

There is very little link between the two. You might as well have blanket positive discrimination for anyone who faces discrimination for any reason. Why not also include people who are gay or have disabilities? Good way to seem progressive, but bad way to identify and address the causes of discrimination.

Dad but transwomen aren't women. Men can't become women. Ever.

Or, perhaps a woman wishes to be examined by a ‘non-male gynaecologist‘

WOMAN! The word for a ‘non-male’ is woman. I think you know bloody rightly why women want areas away from men, even those that pretend to be women. I also think you simply don’t care as much for women’s rights and safety as you do for men who pretend to be women. You’re just trying to get women to feel guilty about the ‘poor transwomen’ and make us fall back into our ‘be a good girl’ socialisation.

I don’t give permission for my boundaries to be stepped on and I don’t want to share spaces with men who still have their dicks. I have the right to say NO.

The only existence and rights being questioned is WOMEN'S existence and rights as a biological class, by TRAs and AWAs. Sadly we are only too well aware of their existence.

We can see the obvious projection and reversals you know.

What we are questioning is the behaviour of many people falling under the trans ideology and trans umbrella.

Dinosaurs I am so moved and sorry you had to go through that and have to fight on every day since, facing the truth and risk and dealing with it. You have true courage.

Only sick and harmful people would put their wish to have their lie validated above your right to feel safe in our rightful and necessary women's spaces.

Why? Affirmative action programmes are already very contentious. What reasoning would justify an affirmative action programme that includes women and trans women but excludes men?

It's OK to discriminate under English law for strict purposes, and if you are discriminating to find women, then that should include transwoman, because they are, if anything, discriminated against to a greater extent than other women.

If you are against affimative action altogether, then I suspect that's a topic for another thread.

And what is a gender appropriate bathroom anyway?

I would allow transwoman access to gender-appropriate bathrooms.

As has already been established there is very little to stop anybody using any toilet now.

affirmative action programs which are for the benefit of all women.

Why? Affirmative action programmes are already very contentious. What reasoning would justify an affirmative action programme that includes women and trans women but excludes men?

They want the right to be treated as a member of a particular sex class regardless of reality.

The right to be treated differently because of their declared sex.

I want the right not to be treated differently because of my sex.

It's totally incompatible. Treating people differently because of their sex is SEXIST. They want sexism legally enshrined.

Non-binary specific anti-discrimination measures, though - there's something in that. NB is discriminated against for defying sex stereotypes. Females and makes are discriminated against for defying sex stereotypes. Discrimination on the grounds of adherence to or rejection of stereotypes should be outlawed and dealt with very harshly.

Making it specifically for NB rather than everyone is bollocks though. It's letting a few special snowflakes out of the cage of enforced stereotype conformation while offering no protection for the rest of us.

MerryMouse I would allow transwoman access to gender-appropriate bathrooms, and affirmative action programs which are for the benefit of all women. Everything else needs discussion.

I've just asked this very question on twitter, on the UKLabour thread alluded to in another post on here.

A bloke (I think) said current trans rights weren't "good enough" so I asked him which ones weren't, and what extra rights they needed bearing in mind that gender reassignment is a protected quality under the EA.

Had quite a few likes but nobody has actually answered yet. Will let you know if they do.