So what rights do transpeople think they don’t have?

We all struggle with our identity. This is part of the human condition. Trying locate ourselves amidst the social noise and expectations of who we should be; or how we should find ourselves. Our Identity changes with the passage of time, age and experience.

We all have to live, though, within the confines of certain material realities, and our identity has to adapt to reflect these realities. You cannot force the world to change or adapt to you. A healthy sense of self and identity is secure. We do not have excessive need of others to continually affirm it.

It seems that the rights that are lacking are the rights to dictate all terms and to have the world affirm one's identity: through total control of thought and speech. The identity construct is so fragile that anything might shatter it, at any time.

YY. Narcissism self belief and meeting the need to have it confirmed are only manageable when you can control everything either by manipulation or more overt coercion.

"Narcissism lies on a continuum from healthy to pathological. Healthy narcissism is part of normal human functioning. It can represent healthy self-love and confidence that is based on real achievement, the ability to overcome setbacks and derive the support needed from social ties.

But narcissism becomes a problem when the individual becomes preoccupied with the self, needing excessive admiration and approval from others, while showing disregard for other people’s sensitivities. If the narcissist does not receive the attention desired, substance abuse and major depressive disorder can develop."

I can see how formally recognising gender as being fluid and existent for some and not for others could serve to accelerate the process of uncoupling gender and sex and eradicating sex stereotyping.

Really?! Much of what we read about the characteristics which make people feel like they were born in the wrong body are based on stereotypes. Surely by agreeing that 'You don't like pink, barbies and glitter, so no you can't possibly be a girl really, you must be a boy/gender fluid etc' is perpetuating those stereotypes, not helping to dismantle them?

From what I have observed there is much that is text book narcissism in much of the trans rights movement: it is all is about them; their feelings; their rights - and any criticism is deflected back and hugely magnified out of all proportion. There is a continual need for confirmation and affirmation - and sod everyone else. There is little awareness or empathy for actual women at all; their situation; their feelings; their rights.

It seems that the rights that are lacking are the rights to dictate all terms and to have the world affirm one's identity: through total control of thought and speech. The identity construct is so fragile that anything might shatter it, at any time.

This is not about equal rights, but about extra rights - of the narcissistic kind. The kinds of rights that nobody else really has.

You cannot change sex, in the same way that you cannot change race, age or any number of other material realities.

I realise that your question is rhetorical, Athena, but here is an answer: "no, because this right is driven by men for the benefit of men."

Precisely, Barrack. What the current TRA push actually is is a campaign to remove the rights of women (to free assembly, to hold views that some men don't like, to have sex segregated spaces so we don't have to be naked around male humans who we'd rather not be naked around, to choose a female HCP for certain types of medical care, to female only social clubs and schools and university colleges, to female only sports categories, to choose same sex sexual partners without being bullied into "considering" opposite sex partners too).

Nobody has the right (or indeed even the ability) to force other people to see them as they want to be seen. This is not a cosmic injustice, it's just reality.

Will this right be rolled to other group? Children and trans children, disabled and trans disabled? If not, why not? Why would one group get to control other peoples language?

It would be easier to consider the rights that trans people don’t already have if anyone could list what they are.

They haven't yet won the right to STOP 33 million females from being recognised as a legal and biological group.

I think that's the right they want.

They're not actually fighting for an extra right for themselves.
They're opposed to the right that biological females have to be recognised as a sex.

They're fighting to dismantle one of our rights.

What Barracker said.

You wont.
I have asked this question on twitter for 2 years and not once has anyone listed the rights TP do not already have.

Great discussion, for the most part.

Almost 400 messages and I have yet to see a post arguing that there are rights that transpeople don't have.

Yes becky but no consideration is forthcoming is it?

From transactivists to women? That's what you surely mean.

Just to be clear - not typing to flame anyone but I think some consideration goes a long way

The right to have the world see you as you want to be perceived isn't a 'right', it is narcissism. Material reality isn't something to be legislated out of existence.

I still can't think of an instance when gender needs to be recognised in law. If there isn't a clear, practical reason to discriminate on the grounds of sex, isn't the discrimination just plain sexist?

My ideal would be for sex differences to be distinguished where differences relating to sexed bodies and reproductive role are relevant and beyond that for all to be treated as human.

I agree with this. But if people want to have a 'gender' they could, but it shouldn't override sex.

Everything seems to be back to front. As far as I can see an organisation can prevent a man from wearing a skirt as long as they don’t identify as female.

It’s not clear why the law would recognise gender (as opposed to sex) at all.

I like the solution proposed by Rosa Freedman and Rosemary Auchmuty here
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/19/gender-recognition-act-reforms-six-legal-views-transgender-debate

Two separate categories, sex and gender.

we are a long way off that and I can see how formally recognising gender as being fluid and existent for some and not for others could serve to accelerate the process of uncoupling gender and sex and eradicating sex stereotyping

I agree that we live in a gendered society, but wouldn’t it be better to create laws that prevent organisations from enforcing gender needlessly e.g. gendered dress codes?

If gender is recognised in law what exactly is being recognised? That discriminatory practices based on stereotypes are acceptable?

Materialist's post sums the issue up perfectly.

Legislating for it, on the other hand, turns the legislating state into a theocracy. Up with this, I, a* person of faith, do not wish to put.*

The state has no business mandating belief.

If we lived in a non gendered society, trans people wouldn't have a case for trying to assert their chosen gender. But our society is very gendered and gender and sex are conflated.

My ideal would be for sex differences to be distinguished where differences relating to sexed bodies and reproductive role are relevant and beyond that for all to be treated as human. However, we are a long way off that and I can see how formally recognising gender as being fluid and existent for some and not for others could serve to accelerate the process of uncoupling gender and sex and eradicating sex stereotyping.

Yes, Merrymouse. Every so often I just shake my head at the insanity of it all. Separating spaces on the basis of gender makes as much sense as separating them by star sign.