Hate crimes against men

I agree with you re hate crime. I am against the concept. Like you have done I can come up with all sorts of examples of crimes which are not "hate crime"

eg attacks on homeless people, on people who just look a bit odd , posh school boys in posh school uniform- they all happen but none are hate crimes.

Lass, yes, that's true, the religious aspect is significant. But I'm not going to go further down this one because I'm the gobby sod arguing against hate crime as an idea anyway.

I think it must be assasinated

Like fuck are you not here to be goady. The purpose of so called hate crime legislation, much though I disagree with it, was to deal with specific vulnerable and minority groups that faced significant prejudices and dangers due to their particular characteristics - ethnicity, sexuality etc

Not strictly true that the person being protected must be vulnerable or a member of a minority group. Taking sectarian crime a Celtic supporter beating up a male, straight, able bodied, Protestant Rangers supporter just because the latter is a Protestant is a hate crime.

"Not quite sure why Goths are being singled out for protection?" - I wonder if it's to do with the murder of Sophie Lancaster?

This is being discussed on Sky News now...

IMO if we are going to have hate crimes then all the protected categories should be included. At the moment sex and age are not.
Not quite sure why Goths are being singled out for protection?

Again, a case of a man telling us all who he is, being recognised for who he is and treated accordingly.

Oh i apologise i hadn't seen scotts latest post and was being a little tongue in cheek

Im not being tongue in cheek anymore

Epic fail at NOT being goady there

I'm certainly not here to be goady

See unintended consequences

Poster did not mean to be goady...and accidentally comes across as goady

yes I agree men are vulnerable but the toxic masculinity comes from men, so are you suggesting a man telling another man to 'man up' should be treated as a hate incident.

I was (I quote) told by a female team leader that "I think you just need to man up a bit" when I was in my early 20s. I had challenged her on the way she would demean/snidely put me down in front of the three female colleagues who comprised the rest of our sales pod.

Sorry , I meant harm caused directly by someone else's negative attitudes to a specific group .

Ok, I'm probably a little off topic as this thread is about literal hate crimes, but the idea that "boys don't cry" etc is a negative attitude to a specific group. Every time people go to watch a film like Magic Mike or similar it's contributing to the stereotype that men should be big, strong, tough, manly, etc.

Women seem to love the super masculine Tom Hardy type from my observations which is why we currently have a huge epidemic of steroid use amongst young men (many of whom create irreversible physical and psychological damage - gynomastia (manboobs) and mood imbalances caused by elevated oestrogen etc).

84 men a week killing themselves is a tragedy. It's not hate crime and it's not evidence that men are vulnerable either. Toxic masculinity is reified and enforced by other men. Own it. And the poster you mentioned turned out to be a massive MRA wanker, so sorry we're just good at spotting them early, but when men come here purely to be goady fuckers for years, it helps to let them know we know what they are early on.

Just for info: the 'feminists hate men' trope is old and boring, find a new one. Feminists hate assholes.

I agree with Floral here that hate crimes in these circumstances shouldn't be seen as crimes in their own right. It's different if they are seen as aggravating factors for already extant crimes, although quite how that would work in the case of "misandry" I have no clue.

Like fuck are you not here to be goady. The purpose of so called hate crime legislation, much though I disagree with it, was to deal with specific vulnerable and minority groups that faced significant prejudices and dangers due to their particular characteristics - ethnicity, sexuality etc.

But thanks for proving my point that when you single out specific motives for crimes it's profoundly unhelpful, particularly because you get a whole crowd of people wondering why their special bone of contention doesn't get extra special status.

As I've made clear, I personally disagree with the whole notion of 'hate crime', but I can at least see the motivation for people to want to protect minorities. Men have many issues to deal with, no doubt. If you could encourage them to get on with it and stop being violent to each other and women on a huge scale, that would be grand, ta.

We were discussing this on FB earlier. Pretty soon everybody will be covered by hate crime legislation. It’ll look lovely in the headlines that the govt are doing this and that to protect groups x y and z, but all it’ll mean in the real world is that the same privileged few will be protected, because the police will go on prioritising the same people as they ever did, only those people will have the weight of the law behind them. Just like self ID really, make the law so universal that anybody can exploit it, but it’s only really useful if you’re a certain type of person, namely male.

Sorry , I meant harm caused directly by someone else's negative attitudes to a specific group .

I agree that male suicide rates are a big problem scot but in this context we're talking about vulnerability in terms of harm caused directly by someone. Males are certainly vulnerable to societal pressure, but I think that's a different issue.

ScottCheggJnr yes I agree men are vulnerable but the toxic masculinity comes from men, so are you suggesting a man telling another man to 'man up' should be treated as a hate incident. The law is far too blunt an instrument for this

I'm certainly not here to be goady,

But is the cause of male suicide, men being targeted with hate?

I think it’s more because many young men can’t see their role in society any more. But maybe I’m wrong.

I’m not sure I can think of a hate crime against men - being excluded from night clubs while women are admitted.... possibly, but that’s about it. It’s hardly hate-filled is it!

If there are others, I don’t know what they are.

It’s a logical extension of the law I suppose.

Men as a group are not vulnerable.

I'm sorry, but what? 'Men' are a vulnerable or minority group in what way, shape or form?

Men are only vulnerable when they belong to other groups - eg disabled, not because they are men.

I don't want to be accused of mansplaining and I'm certainly not here to be goady, but I really disagree with the above.

84 men week killing themselves clearly indicates that men are vulnerable. It's toxic masculinity if anything that leads to statements like the above - "boys don't cry", "men aren't sensitive", "men aren't vulnerable", etc.

I think part of the problem is what constitutes 'hate'.
When we are talking about a physical attack, then I tend to agree that the crime itself is more important than the motivation.
Shouting random abuse or insults at someone is wrong but I wouldn't necessarily class it as a hate crime. I do think it's a different situation if the insults are based on race, sexuality etc.

You know it is going to be used to silence/harass women who name men as the problem.

To be fair, I've seen the reverse happen on here.

A poster was (somewhat argumentatively) making the point that male suicide is hugely overlooked and dismissed as 'male violence'. He gave a few examples where feminists had actively campaigned against events like IMD whixh focus on male suicide - one example was how they managed to successfully ban it at York Uni only several days after a male student had committed suicide, their sated intention being to "focus on the oppression faces by women."

He was called a "misogynist/MRA" and yet I think he had some fair points.

People phoning in were obsessed with hate crimes against men just being about equality - totally missing the point that societal structures are misogynistic and when women hate men it is as a reaction to the horrific assaults and crimes that men commit...there are NO structures that are set up as misandrist.

Andy West's voice was shaking with barely concealed rage. He reminded me of Haddock. Nina got the last word which was fab!

Nina was awesome on J Vine. Haven't heard or seen her for ages, good to know she is still around (and presumably pretty GC?)

Andy is a scarily good MRA representative - he sounded pretty reasonable and measured, so most listeners would be nodding along with him. It's only when you unpick what he said that it becomes apparent that he's talking tosh (and pretty offensive tosh at that - women getting some power now and therefore using it to abuse men...) and most listeners won't both to do that and have probably already forgotten what was said in favour of singing along to Westlife

Just listened to Jeremy Vine BBC2 Radio with Andy West and Nina Myskow.
Didn't know whether to laugh or cry,Andy's raving mad.