Butterfly - anyone watching

Both dad and mum in this narrative seem to have a toxic model of what masculinity should be. Dad rejects son as insufficiently masculine according to this model, and mum wishes him to be a girl because she can't relate to a boy who according to the model will be inevitably misogynist. As a boy he is unacceptable to both parents.

The programme just highlights the lack of logical thinking. At no time did they ask the child what a girl is. What makes him think he is a girl.

There is no discussion with him, he doesn't go to therapy, there is no family therapy. There is just an abusive father, a terrible relationship with a grandmother and a lack of sexual boundaries.

They make it look like the child is a fantasist, using dressing up and role play to escape a confusing time in his life. It definitely looks like something he will grow out of.

It shows so clearly that the poor child is desperate for his Dads love....struggling to come to terms with parents separation, & most likely gay. That the correct path is puberty blockers is insane! I can’t see how this is good promotional material for mermaids at all.

Nothing was being done to challenge the sexism, homphobia and dysfunctional family dynamics.

THIS!

Hasn't Susie Green recently retconned her family history to remove the fact that her homophobic husband was extremely displeased by their male child wanting to play with dolls etc? I guess that chance was too recent to make it into the script.

i can't bring myself to watch this and apologies that i have read some not all of this thread..... but can someone confirm that this drama has the dad being completely not accepting of a gender non conforming son? who then decides he is a girl?

if that is the case isn't it funny that the narrative is so similar to what a lot of gender critical people here suspect - that the increase in trans identifying kids goes hand in hand with an increase in homophobia and an entrenching of gender stereotypes?

where opinion divides is that gender critical people would say the stereotypes and homophobia are wrong and must be challenged, allowing the child to be just as he is. the narrative of the drama is that the homophobia and stereotypes are correct and the child's body is wrong.

or have i got the wrong end of the stick here?

Nothing was being done to challenge the sexism, homphobia and dysfunctional family dynamics

Yes, what they all said

Not much money to be made from investing in good quality family therapy or other psychological interventions though. Not compared to puberty blockers.

It's also not a documentary, it's not trying to say all boys and all girls like x y and Z. It's about that ficitional family.

Yes, and this is precisely the reason this kind of shit us so dangerous. Pushes the ideology in a thinly veiled format of 'drama', and then, when it's appalling contents are critiqued and exposed, there's always the fail safe of "It's only a fictional family!"

You can't have it both ways. Either it's a stunning and realistic portrayal of the reality of trans identifying children's lives, or it's just fiction, no big deal.

The family had been told it was just a phase and to keep it in the house. No hormones, no surgery talks. This went on for 6 years. So it didn't work- so what next? Keep plugging away at a strategy that wasn't working?

Nothing was being done to challenge the sexism, homphobia and dysfunctional family dynamics.

This is where the focus should have been.

It highlights the catastrophe and consequences of cuts to social care, CAMHs family support etc

Talking of Dad and beyond: Research data suggest that homophobic bullying has an impact of a kid's gender identity. They internalize what others say and integrate it by saying 'well, I guess, I am really not a [boy/girl], must be the other gender, then...'

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-017-0749-6

The family had been told it was just a phase and to keep it in the house. No hormones, no surgery talks. This went on for 6 years. So it didn't work- so what next? Keep plugging away at a strategy that wasn't working?

You obviously missed the point that Daddy couldn't bear the thought of a pink boy and denied the boy a gendernonconforming life in that time.

So it didn't work- so what next? Keep plugging away at a strategy that wasn't working?

Keep going. Allow more time. Ongoing therapy with experts. Try different therapists. Allow the child to become no longer enmeshed with a mother with concerning behaviour. I don’t the full answer of how to improve things but I know the answer is not “fly to Thailand and chop your child’s bollocks off”.

The family had been told it was just a phase and to keep it in the house. No hormones, no surgery talks. This went on for 6 years. So it didn't work- so what next? Keep plugging away at a strategy that wasn't working?

Re stereotypes: step outside your front door and take a look around. Or just turn the telly on. It's disingenuous for people here of all places to criticise the show's obvious gender stereotyping. It's a comment on heteronormative environments! If the kid had two butch mummies and was dressed in a tutu to go to softplay at the age of 3- there'd be a whole different set of arguments

So basically the point of this show is that dysfunctional families create kids who identify as trans*, but instead of working on the family dynamic the solution is to load the kids up with hormones and start making plans to have their genitalia cut off when they get older?

*Noticing that and trying to work on the family dynamics was one of the reason Ken Zucker got sacked.

Agreed with everyone else on the inappropriateness of showing an 11 year old slashing their wrists, and spying on mum and dad to check that they're shagging. A pervasive disregard for both safeguarding (don't encourage social contagion) and appropriate boundaries (don't sexualize children) seems to be a hallmark of trans activism.

Basically telling kids that if you want your mum and dad to get back together you have to slash your wrists

This is the bit that really concerns me.Depicting suicidal behaviour as an effective solution to anything in a show explicitly aimed at young people is wildly irresponsible.

Lisa Muggeridge
'#Butterfly, Mermaids, and how easy it is to hide grooming in plain sight.'

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=TwnUxlzUCNE

Philip Larkin, 'This Be The Verse'

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.

They may not mean to, but they do.

They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,

Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.

As said, I thought it was good and I have no issues with the stereotypes as I would assume from looking at adult trans folks that stereotypical gender things are something these kids possibly do focus on, and that a parent trying to push them away from it may try to focus on the opposite gender stereotypes.

I strongly suspect it would be very unrealistic for a little boy wishing to be a girl to be saying yes but I like boy stereotypes,

Stereotypes are not always a negative, they are stereotypes for a reason in many instances. And that's because it is normally typical of a given group.

It's also not a documentary, it's not trying to say all boys and all girls like x y and Z. It's about that ficitional family.

So if we took all the dresses and skirts and pink and frilly clothes and makeup out of the world, and everyone had to be bald, how would transgenderism manifest itself?

What else is there? I don't understand this programme. It's almost like it's making fun of transgirls. Very uncomfortable to watch.

That's all the stuff we see. In reality it is a mystical thing in the realm of the inner soul that cannot be adequately described in words.

So they don't bother and just make crude assumptions based on prejudice and stereotype, cos it's so much easier than addressing their preconceptions and any underlying mental health and psychological issues with their children.

This is what TRAs say it's all about? Really? Make up and clothes, hair and nail polish, pink and frilly.

That's it?

I thought there was so much more to it. Gobsmacked

Utterly failing to mention her role in Mermaids, the Daily Mail is running an interview with Susie Green whose family's story 'inspired' the Butterfly series.

In the Showbiz section.

Without comments.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 14-Oct-18 21:10:57

"Now the wee boy is making "bitchy" comments about dads GFs tanlines - obviously a girl thing"

Yep They were doing the being a girl = being bitchy thing Really pisses me off

My take on it:
First part of #Butterfly:
Only boys like football
Only boys can be astronauts
Product placement for #Mermaids
Dysfunctional family
Girls wear pink tops and skirt and like posing in front of mirrors
Girls do not wear trousers
Only girls allowed to wear studs at school
Max wants family reunited
Max doesn't allow mum to kiss him on first day of secondary school but older daughter does
Max wets pants because "scared" of using toilet
Max using emotional blackmail to access girls toilets, toilet scene shows toilets to be effectively "gender neutral" i.e. toilet block with boys and girls loos opposite each other with open urinal in front of boys in full sight of girls toilets??

Max upset that mum is going out on date with another man, so slashes wrists to prevent it happening - the epitome of emotional blackmail and manipulation to try to reunite mum and dad

One has to question why daughter asking if mum will have sex with new guy on first date - totally dysfunctional family. Assume suicide attempt associated with dysfunctional family not "trans" status

Max saying that wrist slashing "calmed him down" - using suicide attempt to draw attention to family dysfunction as Max obviously didn't want mum to date another man. This speak volumes about family disunity not "trans ID"

Mum and dad try to get back together, Max spying to ensure they are sharing the same bedroom. Max seem watching "I am Jazz" on youtube - social contagion angle?

Question - why is Max hanging around mum and dads bedroom ensuring they are having sexual relations - this is sick

Basically telling kids that if you want your mum and dad to get back together you have to slash your wrists - this cannot go unchallenged - it is manipulative in the extreme

I like your boss Floral