True to myself but..........

With men, asking if they'd sleep with a TW helps too

And with gay men asking them if they’d sleep with a transman.

Ideology be damned, the penis wants what the penis wants.

Sorry I also meant to say that it's normal that teens think the opposite of their parents.

I agree with the pp that said this is more about being a teenager than about trans.
I was a teenager in the 70's.
No one batted an eyelid about men wearing makeup,
I would have been totally woke.
But I'd have changed my mind pretty damn quick if a man had come into the showers.

@FlowerpotFairyHouse that's great news!

My brother and sister in law have been opposed to me on the start on this. Not because they believe women can have penises, but because they thought I'd bought into some anti man/trans propaganda and the whole thing was such obvious nonsense that it could not realistically happen.

We haven't spoken about it for months but I've messaged them links and articles not even knowing if they were reading them.

Yesterday, he told me they are completing the consultation in favour of women.

I think just reacting in that situation with ' I don't agree' and moving on is enough.

Good on you for expressing your truth. It is sad to see young women who are likely not thinking of things like fertility, breastfeeding, or even the sexual pleasure their breasts can bring, having double mastectomies. I wish elective mastectomies for reasons other than family history of b/c were illegal under 25.

Contentious I appreciate you sharing your story. The point about refusing to go along with the fiction being a point of security is a very interesting one. This evening's argument here began when my daughter told me that one of her friends had just had the double mastectomy and I replied by saying 'that's sad' or something - without thinking. (Just the idea of a young person in hospital recovering from that operation seems distressing) Dd got angry and upset, and said that reaction showed my transphobia, because to a trans person that surgery is a wonderful thing. And on we went from there.

Oldstyle thanks for your kindness. Feeling very teary tonight and your encouragement meant a lot. Especially on my shameless thread hijack! (sorry OP)

IAmNotInvisible that's such a good point. It's for women whose voices aren't heard that we need to raise our own.

Thanks Quentin. Actually not amazing at all. Just muddling along.

I do hate the idea of radical body change; I am realistic though, and my goal was always to get dd to a point in time where she was better able to assess risk (into her twenties) without it, and without hormones. Job done.

Anyway, I am off the point. The point being that yes, defensive responses from our children usually indicate cog diss they don't want to look at, and softly, softly but persistently, and with an equal focus on truth and relationship can work out OK.

contentious you sound amazing
I would hate if one of my children wanted to radically change their bodies, they are so perfect. I don't understand a movement that wants to do unnecessary surgery on physically healthy humans.it just doesn't sit right

I had something similar just today. My dad, whom I admire greatly, started saying about how wonderful it was that kids have the freedom to be trans now...I was speechless, all I could muster was a "are you serious?" look. He's an incredibly intelligent and well travelled man. I really wasn't expecting it and he obviously couldn't answer the obvious questions. It seems he's gotten caught up in the PC hype.

I think if your daughters are lucky enough never to have been raped or traumatised by a man, it is exciting and counterculture to see no problem with men in women's spaces. I know that was how I felt when I was young.

I don't mean to say it isn't hard.

Dd told me she thought she was really male in a psych hospital, where the doctors wouldn't let her go home till she disclosed, and I reacted honestly but badly. I was angry, called her a traitor to the cause (not in so many words but that was the gist) and basically displayed my complete lack of belief that female children whose vulva's I observed myself over years of bathing and nappy changing are actually male. I refused to use a male name; I try when I remember to do neutral terms like 'sibling' but often forget.

And you know, she was pretty hysterical on hearing all this. But we managed that outpouring of emotion from both sides.

She knows I am utterly supportive of her being gay, and gender non comforming. I buy her clothes from the men's section. I give her money to get her buzzcuts. She accepts that I will always see her as female, and that I have no problem with females being butch. I think real life acceptance of these things goes a long way to mitigating disgust.

I wonder if refusing to enact cognitive dissonance myself is in fact a point of security for her. I don't know. For all I know she's hanging out to leave home, get hormones, chop her boobs off. But I think we'll be Ok either way, and I didn't have to lie for it to be OK.

So I hope, OP, that I didn't give you the idea it's easy to be GC with teen girls. It's not. It's a tightrope. I more wanted to give you optimism that being honest doesn't have to shut down the relationship.

I think over-reactions to a Mum talking about legal issues - like disgust - absolutely indicate internal cognitive dissonance.

I'd suggest keeping calm - sorry you feel that way hon - and moving on.

I've also been on a quest to dig out all the best movies/tv shows that show gay men and lesbian women dealing with homophobia by changing society and not their bodies. Nanette was brilliant to watch with both my 21 yr old and my 14 yr old; we also really enjoyed Pride (the movie).

I've also been wondering if another approach isn't to present women's issues without reference to trans. For example, the plight of women in prison, the need for single sex facilities in other countries (hard to justify not needing them here without being racist), the impact of austerity on girls and women.

My kids are also attend mandatory 'look at 80's singers, see how they were androgynous/played with gender presentation while still understanding their sex' sessions, which they roll their eyes at but probably get something from, esp the youngest.

I’ve been looking for feminist groups so I have some real life solidarity, no luck so far so am trying to find a way of getting further afield as travelling is a problem for me. DH is broadly in agreement but not really up for much discussion, which is why I’m always here

I have two sons. Yet I will fight for women’s rights. And to spaces. I’m told I dislike men. I can’t dislike men as I have two beautiful kind sons.

Easy for me to say now that mine are all grown up Abs but to some extent teenagers violently disagreeing with parents is what naturally happens. It was drugs with mine and they knew better / I was a fascist. All you can do is exactly what you are doing I think. Be honest but don't push it, and keep loving them. But sorry you are having such a hard time. This entire ideology is so destructive / polarising.

To anyone feeling despondent, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you all for standing up and fighting to protect the rights of women and girls most of whom you will never will know.

My severely disabled DGD won't ever have the capacity to appreciate it, but I'm fighting for her. If your relatives and friends aren't on board, take heart from knowing you're fighting for those who will never have a voice.

ContentiousOne massive respect to you for balancing things so well and keeping lines of communication open.

My daughter is, by upbringing and instinct, fiercely feminist, and I think this causes her huge internal conflict because of - well, the external conflict. She has a number of close friends who are transmasc, and to her the issue is hugely personal and emotional. My perspective is legal and political, about safeguarding women's rights, because of the impact their erosion will have on all women. Perhaps this is the generation gap - she sees a narrow strip of the picture in great detail, I see the overview. I have told her that l her that I respect her view, but she says she is disgusted by mine. I suspect that her vehemence is partly caused by a tiny glimmer of agreement that feels threatening to her values and identity.

Quentin I daren't even go there! My daughter has accused me of trying to change her mind by giving examples of bad things, when mostly it good people doing their best against terrible difficulty. I understand that this has been her experience, but part of being older is having a wider understanding. I'm still wondering whether I should have backed off and changed the subject though.

I've had similar in the past.
Womens sport is a good way to discuss this, Hannah Mouncey in particular is a good way in because most people intuitively understand the issues with a 15 stone, 6'2" transitioning MTF playing a contact sport against females.
With men, asking if they'd sleep with a TW helps too (altho my STBXH then though he might be a bigot for saying no!)
It sucks though, it's horrible being called a bigot for reasonable concerns.

Teenage daughters will grow up.

I have to be extremely careful with my teen daughters. My transmasc daughter knows we disagree profoundly, but we rarely discuss because I want to keep the relationship. She is, however, respectful of me, and I of her.

My lesbian dd is just scared of saying the wrong thing. But there is no way she believes she should be attracted to penis. I support her not by talking to her about genderism but by trying to help her find community off campus.

My teen son, maybe gay, maybe bi, plays with gender presentation - he is currently on the same page as me. We can discuss it.

Most teens and young people will change as they grow older. They will develop the ability to see things in shades of grey. Mothers don't need to hide their views on material reality from their children, but it's OK to balance that with keeping relationships open and strong. With children I play the long game.

Quiet was the argument with your daughters, or on their behalf? I have just had a world-shaking argument with my daughter about this. She's a teenager and I knew we had very different views so have tried to avoid the subject, but it came up tonight so I tried to explain to her why I hold the views that I do about men in women's spaces. She said she couldn't understand how I didn't see how transphobic I am.

Her view is that women can have penises. My view is that they cannot. She says that this changes her feelings towards me.

I feel shaky and sick and wonder if I should have backtracked. We've always had a pretty good relationship, but it feels like there is a massive chasm between us now and I'm not sure how to repair it.

Anyway - sorry for the massive hijack! I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone.

It's upsetting but I remember being a fervent CNDer in my youth and entirely unable to shut up about it which drove everyone mad and alienated people who might otherwise have been allies. So this time I've just opened up the conversation very gently and then let it go if it was clear that my listeners weren't ready to hear what I had to say, or disagreed. Some wins, some definite losses, some I'm still hopeful about. But everyone is still talking to me. Given how frightening and stressful the topic is, I can't be doing with any additional angst so that's ok.