Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

Absent the existence of category A prisons for women, however, the prison authorities would have no option but to place White with vulnerable women serving sentences for much lesser offences, were he to be placed in the women's estate again.

There are fewer than 20 highest risk category women prisoners at any one time. That's why we haven't had dedicated prisons for them. Should the prison service continue with this lunatic policy, we might well need one. This new "women's prison" will be populated by a dozen women and the rest will be trans. So effectively, it'll be the same thing: a male prison for high risk male prisoners plus Rose West and Shauna Hoare.

For me this is a big flaw in the argument. If you succeed in banning trans women from female spaces then trans men will be included in female spaces and I don't see how that accommodates vulnerable women.

Not with a third space provision. Third spaces might also solve the non-binary question, I think.

Allowing self-identified trans men into male spaces should be with the consent of men. It is true that testosterone can help the trans man "pass" much easier, but men should also be consulted.
The power dynamics and risks are also important to contextualize. The extra risks of allowing any and all self identified transmen into male spaces are being knowingly taken on by the trans man himself. He is the one who is most at risk, and he therefore can give informed consent. As he is biologically female, he is not likely to pose a significant risk to biological males, but again, men should also have a say for reasons of privacy, comfort, etc.

The extra risk of allowing any and all self identified transwomen into female spaces is not actually being carried by the transwoman herself. Because males are statistically more likely to be sexual offenders or violent then actually the harm from such policies will be borne by the females who are already in that space. Women right now are not even being properly consulted as to whether they think the extra risk is worth it.

So in other words, transwomen are not knowingly taking on an extra liability as a fully informed individual in order to go into women's spaces. What's actually happening is that in order to accommodate transwomen, females as a group have been demanded to remove their boundaries, without informed consent or even a seat at the negotiating table, and with potentially very significant costs to women's comfort and safety.

The reason transwomen in women's spaces is the big issue, is because the people taking on the additional risk are the already vulnerable natal women, and therefore it is their opinion that really matters.

placemats

I'm not talking about lesbian, gay or bisexual people at all.

I am talking about trans men - who may be gay, heterosexual or bi sexual.

I'm talking about a trans man who may present with a full beard and masculine build. I cannot see how insisting that they be housed in a female prison, because they were born female, won't be traumatising for some vulnerable female prisoners.

This has nothing at all to do with sexual orientation so I have no idea why you are being so aggressive towards me.

I'm never campaigning for a third space. Fuck that shite.

I'm done with pandering to what men want.

So tell me Brown if a man presented as 'feminine' in a male prison where should he be placed for his 'safety'?

Women have repeatedly argued for third spaces. Which is actually really bloody big of us, because we shouldn't have to be campaigning for solutions to transpeople's problems when Stonewall are sitting on a big pile of money and doing dick all.

But that is not our focus, because it has nothing to do with whether women are put in danger by housing them with male bodied individuals.

Has anyone signed the petition? From within the tweet

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

That was to Brown

I'm not explaining to you your homophobia. Fuck right off.

Lesbians, gays and bisexuals.

I have absolutely no problem with sharing showers, dormitories etc with women no matter how masculine they appear. I have a highly masculine lesbian family member. Still female bodied.

Then we agree on something Brown

YeTalkShiteHen

I have read your posts. I know that is what you have said but not everyone is saying that.

I do think a 3rd space is the only option to balance all needs.

I understand where you’re coming from brownpaperteddy. If there was a transman in a women’s prison who sported a beard and was very muscular due to hormones etc it probably would be traumatising to women who would be traumatised by men. I don’t understand why this would be homophobia?

But I think third spaces would solve it.

Men who use prostitutes care not a shit about what state that prostitute is in so long as they are exactly what they asked for; usually young looking and young adult female, i.e. girl.

So? They are female and if this self ID nonsense is knocked on the head then everyone in the women’s prison will know they are a woman, however they present.

And I bet any ‘transman’s’ ‘dysphoria gets knocked on the head smartish if they realise they’ll be facing time in a men’s prison. Bet they’re not quite so keen to identify as a man then.

Just. Piss. Off. What you have written is homophobic. It's hatred and it's vile.

How on earth is it homophobic?

So you can all post about trans women - so people that were born male but have since transitioned but if I pose a question about people born female but have transitioned I'm being homophobic?

Seriously explain how.

If you just argue that prisoners be housed with their birth sex then I think it will end up with some vulnerable female prisoners sharing cells with people that look very much like men but who were born female.

I haven’t

Then why not just argue for a 3rd prison space for all trans gender prisoners?

Er I have been, repeatedly. Try reading my posts.

ITS NOT OUR MESS, AND NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX IT.

Then why not just argue for a 3rd prison space for all trans gender prisoners?

If you just argue that prisoners be housed with their birth sex then I think it will end up with some vulnerable female prisoners sharing cells with people that look very much like men but who were born female.

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

Just. Piss. Off. What you have written is homophobic. It's hatred and it's vile.

Obviously Dennehy is a risk to men.

HMP Bronzefield where Dennehy is

HMP Bronzefield.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/serial-killer-joanna-dennehy-plotted-to-escape-jail-by-using-the-severed-fingers-of-guards-to-open-a7051641.html

As agreed earlier BrownPaperTeddy a third and separate accommodation may be needed for transgender inmates.

I think just be careful what you argue for

You’re saying that to us? Why not say it to the ones who argued for this shit in the first place and caused all this???

ITS NOT OUR MESS, AND NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX IT.