Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

but just may not have a penis. Will that make very much difference?

(blinks)

I'm sorry, are we still on Earth? Do we originate on different planets? Because on this one, yeah, a female person with muscles but no penis (and therefore no male socialization either) and a male person (usually with penis, though still a problem without) are indeed different things, and women feel safer around the former than the latter.

As Germaine Bunbury, males humans are more violent than female humans regardless of style of dress or level of hairiness.

If you don't think it's the responsibility of women to campaign for third spaces or solve the issue, why are posting in FWR about it? The focus here is on protecting the rights and safety of women and girls, not campaigning for transpeople.

The only reason trans people are discussed here is when certain people demand that women give up rights and protections and use transwomen and transmen as leverage.

for some odd reason some trans people require access only to women's spaces.

Well the authorities will need to insist that on some occasions a 3rd space is the only option. Sadly, none of us can have everything that we want and that really is the only option in this instance.

GoldenWonderwall

Maybe you are right. I have no experience with regards to this.

I only know how I would feel and that would be based on outward physical appearance. I wouldn't think of a person with a beard and masculine appearance, who identified as a man, as female. My reactions and feelings would be as toward a man.

Then why not just argue for a 3rd prison space for all trans gender prisoners?

Pretty much everyone new to this situation (every single person I have spoken to, lots of replies on Twitter, Facebook pages etc) says well
What about a third space then?

Then It has to be explained that it's not good enough, for some odd reason some trans people require access only to women's spaces. Can't imagine why.

And although I will not oppose a third space, I will not do any fundraising awareness raising or anything else for men.

But you haven't really explained why it's the responsibility of women to solve that issue or campaign for it

I don't think it's the responsibility for women to campaign for it or to solve the issue. It's for everyone to deal with.

The question of trans gender prisoners is so much more complicated.

It's not. Karen White is not complicated at all.

Sorry but I think it is complicated. I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons (either if they are full post op trans men or women, transitioned 20 years ago and have a GRC). Also being accommodated will be people far along the pathway to transitioning but not yet had surgery, those living as their trans gender but not ever intending on surgery all the way along the spectrum to people who may chose to only self ID without any physical changes. At some point along this spectrum I am assuming the prison authorities will make different decisions as to which prison is appropriate. A 3rd space which can accommodate everyone under this umbrella makes sense.

Male trauma. Male. Not women with flat chests and short hair cuts and beards who work out trauma. It’s offensive to women to say they’re scared of an aesthetic and it’s offensive to trans men to imply their appearance decisions are triggering to women who’ve experienced male violence or sexual violence.

I think just be careful what you argue for

Oh for christs sake

Behave!

I have read your posts. I know that is what you have said but not everyone is saying that.

I think the vast amount of posters on here would be happy with third spaces

I have seen it typed hundreds of times

There are 2 aspects to this situation - trans men and trans women.

I am assuming that whatever is decided about 1 will also apply to the other.

So if you campaign for trans women to be housed in male prisons because they were born male then a natural consequence will be that trans men will be housed in female prisons.

I don't see that a vulnerable female prisoner, who for whatever reason feels unable to be in close proximity to a man, will feel comfortable sharing a cell with a person that looms exactly like a man but just doesn't have a penis.

I think just be careful what you argue for.

My full post. Very clear that I am describing trans men,placemats.

No it wasn't.

Still you are being obfuscating and disingenuous.

placemats

Only when you've carefully selected the text and ignored the context and the rest of my posts.

It was very clear that I was talking about trans men, and trans men only, who can appear very masculine.

Nobody. Fucking. Passes.

I find it massively offensive to women that posters such as teddy argue they’re scared of short haircuts or pecs, on both sides of that equation.

Where on earth have I said that? How do you know that I don't have short hair and muscles?

Other posters have expressed concern that vulnerable female prisoners would be affected by sharing a cell with a trans woman because of previous male instigated trauma. I am saying that I'm not sure that it would be ok for those same vulnerable women to share a cell with a trans man either - they may well have a beard and pass easily as male but just may not have a penis. Will that make very much difference?

I would not be comfortable changing in the gym next to a person that had a beard and looked like a man. I'm not particularly interested in what genitals they have.

Brown, no, you're not the only poster calling for a third space. But you haven't really explained why it's the responsibility of women to solve that issue or campaign for it, beyond the fact that we are being threatened with male bodies in female spaces.

Brown

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

Homophobic.

The question of trans gender prisoners is so much more complicated.

It's not. Karen White is not complicated at all.

Not least because of the sheer spectrum included under the umbrella of trans.

Utter shite.

I'm supposing you really think we should all just get over it.

Well get on with it then Brown. Start campaigning for it. Good luck.
Why are you singling me out placemats?

I'm not the only poster calling for a 3rd space. Why single me out? And still no explanation for you calling me homophobic?

It doesn’t matter what someone looks like if you know they are a man or a woman does it. The most masculine looking woman is still a woman and even if she is in prison with you, she is 98% less likely to be a violent offender than a male prisoner.

I’m not traumatised by masculine women and I’m not afraid of women who identify themselves as trans male or non binary or whatever they want to identify as. Because they are women and are highly unlikely to be violent or sexually violent even if they are in prison.

I find it massively offensive to women that posters such as teddy argue they’re scared of short haircuts or pecs, on both sides of that equation. Women are scared of men because they use their bigger stronger bodies (or the threat of them) to hold us down and force us to do things we don’t want to.

It looks as though there was a period during which high risk female prisoners were held in men's prisons, then Low Newton was adapted to become the UK's only high security women's prison.

What they tend to do is incorporate highest risk women prisoners (as above, around a dozen at any one time) in institutions that combine a women's prison with a male youth offender wing. That way they can pool resources for high risk. But in Northern Ireland (and at periods in Scotland) they have put highest risk female prisoners in special accommodation in the male estate - because so few women are highest risk.

There are several FTM trans prisoners. None are in the male estate.

heresyandwitchcraft

Thank you for that really even handed explanation.

I agree with the points you make.

I do hope that when the new policies are created that they can be balanced like that.

My fear is that it will be "if we do this for men then we do exactly the same for women".

Well get on with it then Brown. Start campaigning for it. Good luck.

Prisons should be sex segregated. I do not believe that trans women at any stage should be admitted. Because it is a slippery slope. We all know how ludicrously badly managed prisons in this country are, and if you don’t I can tell you personally as a visitor they are appalling places. Karen White is a shining example of their massive incompetence. They are woefully underfunded, and not a place where you could reliably be safe as it is. There is massive wide spread drug abuse that is tolerated as a means of control. Women in prison are vulnerable, one because they got there and have probably suffered sexual or physical abuse already, and two because of the actual prison system and conditions. The very least that can be done is to keep those women and their babies and small children free from the possibility of sexual abuse or rape. They are clearly and historically now proven to be unable to assess prisoners on a case by case basis. If there needs to a be a new section that deals with trans people then they need to sort that out themselves.

placemats

It's nothing to do with a man presenting as feminine, or a women presenting as masculine. If they are both identifying with their birth sex then they should be housed in the appropriate prison, accordingly. Within this, as I understand it, prisoners deemed vulnerable or too violent to be housed in the general population they will be segregated either for their safety or the safety of others. I guess here if the feminine man is at risk the prison service should take the appropriate action.

The question of trans gender prisoners is so much more complicated. Not least because of the sheer spectrum included under the umbrella of trans. I don't think it will be as easy as if A then B or if C then D.

On the surface it seems that there will have to be a 3rd space created and then possibly sub categories created within this 3rd space.

brownpaperteddy I think knowing that they cannot be anything other than biological woman, despite how they choose to present, might allay some of that trauma? I don’t know if that would be the case but I’d hope it would make a difference knowing that they were women.