Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

I've seen transmen IRL and at best they tend to look like teenaged boys, if you don't look too closely. If you do their sex becomes obvious fairly quickly.

AngryAttackKittens

I agree about them being placed in a 3rd space and yes, I agree, there will need to be segregation within the 3rd space.

It seems such a terribly convoluted mess that i wonder what the government were even thinking to start this in the first place. Surely someone must have been able to see the potential for catastrophe before they embarked on it?

Yep

Dunno why people dont engage their brains before they do things like this

When you take children on a school trip you have to take into account anything that can go wrong...car accident , missing child, aliens! And work out a plan

Why did nobody do that with self id

The solution to that would be selective placement of transmen within the women's estate so that they could potentially be moved to a different cell if their cellmate was concerned. Not putting them in men's prisons, where they would be at risk no matter how beardy they are.

Or third spaces, but in a prison of all places trans males and trans females would clearly need to be separated for the safety of the females. Because it all comes back to male violence, no matter how hard anyone tries to spin the situation.

They just didnt expect piss takers to run with it!!

Yep quite. The law of unintended consequences.

brown

Dunno, it probably seemed like a good idea at the time

Maybe even a money saving excercise

They just didnt expect piss takers to run with it!!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

It would be interesting. Something is definitely changing.

What has prompted the change to self ID?

Isnt the number of people with a GRC relatively low

I would imagine the offending rates for such a small amount of people would be very low

But maybe not

brown

Dunno, but personally its the self id bit i mainly have a problem with

Wonder if we could find out?

I bet its a relatively recent thing

Oh god would you look at that

Apologies brown

On my phone, watching tv and mumsnetting!!!

I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons

One assumes it will just continue as it pretty much always has

Has it though? How have they housed trans women in the prison system until now? Have trans women with a GRC been placed in men's prisons?

breon

If a femal poses a threat to other female prisoners they will be segregated

No, that’s more deflection.

It is up to the trans women to campaign and demand their own space.

Ok. So what are you arguing then?

Just - no? Trans women can't be housed in women's prison. Is that it? No alternative. No consideration as to where trans men prisoners go?

AngryAttackKittens and GoldenWonderwall

I honestly don't know. On another thread a poster quoted a study that showed that trans men, when taking testosterone, actually exhibited male levels and patterns of crime, so they appeared to lose female socialisation. Obviously, these were trans men that committed crime, not all trans men, and I suppose it's possible that they had also committed crimes as females too. I'm not convinced that, certainly within the prison system, that trans men don't pose a physical threat to female prisoners. Again, I know it's relative and individual levels of strength and fitness etc may balance some situations out.

You can't always identify trans men or women. I don't think it's that clear cut.

I honestly can't imagine relating to a female bodied person with a full beard, male name, wearing men's clothes as a woman. And therefore I wouldn't feel comfortable changing or showering or sleeping in the same room as them.

I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons

Unless transwomen are hiding their penises up their backsides beside their mobile phones or having them parachuted over the wall from drones I don’t see what’s so difficult it would be to keep them out of prison.

I completely agree angry

I always read that going 'do what??'

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

It’s the trolly problem. Do you let the train run on and hit one trans person, or pull the lever and divert it into half the population?

Same argument with toilets too - how can we possibly arrange a system in which women piss in the women's bogs and men piss in the men's? Will we all need identity chips? World gone mad! Etc.

If you have to stoop to that level to defend your position then that position may be a bit shit. Just saying.

I don't see how it can be arranged so that male born prisoners are put in mens prisons, female born prisoners in women's prisons

One assumes it will just continue as it pretty much always has

Why do people say this argument as if its a brand new thing..never happened before

OMG a female prisoner in a female prison.....nooooooo whatever next!!!

Well the authorities will need to insist that on some occasions a 3rd space is the only option

No, that’s more deflection.

It is up to the trans women to campaign and demand their own space.

I and many others would support that wholeheartedly and genuinely.

What I will not tolerate, ever, is the aggressive commandeering of OUR safe spaces.

And for placemats my first post that set the context for the post that they are calling homophobic

*Despite many on here, and other threads, stating that the effects of testosterone on trans men makes them as dangerous as natal men.

So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?

It was part of a series of posts and not a stand alone comment.

Really? Are you sure? Because I think you’d quickly realise that in a place where there are only female born women, that person is a woman. I wouldnt be surprised if your subconscious knew that person was a woman based on other information we pick up that isn’t to do with appearance that can be changed with haircuts or surgery.

If I’m in a room full of cats and there’s a cat in a dog suit, it’s still a cat and will be of no use to me when I try and herd it

(Has always said, in terms of the great Ms Bunbury. Don't Mumsnet while trying to conduct a totally separate conversation, peeps.)