Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

AngryAttackKittens

Re the vexatious complainer - undoubtedly there are some who complain just to exploit situations to their own ends. Some I think though are exhibiting that behaviour as a symptom of not having their voice heard before. Not sure how the tangled threads get unpicked though.

I guess we are all a sum of our past experiences.

We don't need third spaces. Endless slippery slope appeasement. We need prisons segregated by sex with sufficient investment into safely accommodating vulnerable prisoners - including, but not limited to, gender non-conforming prisoners.

This is only a difficult concept if you've been on the Kool Aid.

Personality disorders are a thing and they're overrepresented in the prison population.

Exactly AAK I don't think enough people get that or what it really means or looks like and the differences that makes for treatment and managing people.

(We have one of the vexatious, permanently aggrieved people pestering my workplace currently, and I'm having to remind myself that "off you fuck, pet" is not a professional thing to say frequently.)

That person sounds like hell :( I am finding the FUCK OFF BRIAN meme to be very therapeutic at the moment.

Who are the authorities in this case?
Where will the money come from to build and staff a 3rd space?

By authorities I meant whoever is responsible for the criminal justice system - so the government, prison authorities etc. I have no idea what the prison stock is like but surely space within existing prisons could be appropriated? The numbers can't warrant building new prisons surely?

The some occasions I did mean for all trans prisoners. Sorry. I take chemo drugs once a week (so why I'm always on here over the weekend - takes my mind off things) and the side effects are starting so I'm not explaining myself very well. By the some occasions I did mean all trans prisoners but not all prisoners, if that makes sense?

You know, I was considering the audiobook for easy listening while traveling, but decided that I needed the hard copy edition to really gain the full benefit of the work.

Bunbury's oeuvre is considerable - I'm so pleased she's getting the recognition she deserves.

I plan to start on Bunbury's "I don't really know much about this but I know better than all you hysterical harpies - a critical examination of misogyny in action" next.

Is that the audiobook version or the helpful colouring one with illustrations of brain slices, classic line drawings of harpies, and such?

There's also the aggrieved complainant issue, where some prisoners (and people in general) will use anything as an excuse to piss and moan about how unfair everything is to them (even though they're being treated identically to others) and will file endless timewasting complaints. I suspect that some prisoners have realized that claiming to identify as women moves them from "yeah, he's always been like this, ignore" category to "better grease that squeaky wheel before Stonewall sends the flying Twitter monkeys after you" category.

Personality disorders are a thing and they're overrepresented in the prison population.

(We have one of the vexatious, permanently aggrieved people pestering my workplace currently, and I'm having to remind myself that "off you fuck, pet" is not a professional thing to say frequently.)

Fantastic post @ 13.43, RiverTam. I completely agree.

Lets not forget that extreme lack of compassion, empathy, respect, emotional control and narcissistic levels of selfishness and entitlement over and above anyone else are qualities that make prisoners a higher risk to others and society.

We shouldn't be treating them like the squeaky wheel; we should be checking we have locked the doors.

I plan to start on Bunbury's "I don't really know much about this but I know better than all you hysterical harpies - a critical examination of misogyny in action" next.

I'm currently halfway through Bunbury's seminal work on the relationship between the drinking of Kool Aid and the inability to recognise misogyny, homophobia and racism in oneself. It's fascinating stuff.

That's a great treatment of that issue. Bunbury excelled her already considerable oeuvre.

Well the authorities will need to insist that on some occasions a 3rd space is the only option. Sadly, none of us can have everything that
we want and that really is the only option in this instance

Huh but the only ones mentioning 3rd spaces are women.
Who are the authorities in this case?
Where will the money come from to build and staff a 3rd space?
And who will choose the "some" occasions, why not just all trans?
I don't actually care btw, just pointing stuff out, so long as they ain't in women's spaces who gives a damn.

Binglebong

Thanks for posting that. I knew I'd seen it but couldn't find it.

And Binglebong and seafret I agree with what you both say.

I don't think trans women should be in a male prison but that's not the same as saying that they should be in the female prisons. A 3rd space is the only option that makes sense. And yes as you say, sometimes rules are unpopular but as long as prisoners are being treated humanely I think trans gender prisoners will need to accept certain restrictions on where they will be placed.

Also, much like a disproportionate percentage of transwomen are massive, a disproportionate percentage of transmen seem to be small even by female standards. Not quite sure what's going on with that, but it's a pattern I've noticed. Doesn't help in terms of randoms being able to tell sex at a glance.

(Not that there aren't tall women and short men, but when combined with the overall build it tends to make people double take enough for the actual sex to be obvious.)

As Germaine Bunbury, males humans are more violent than female humans regardless of style of dress or level of hairiness.

I'm currently halfway through Bunbury's seminal work on the relationship between the drinking of Kool Aid and the inability to recognise misogyny, homophobia and racism in oneself. It's fascinating stuff.

Yes, I was served by a transman in a shop the other day. Very good service, totally pleasant exchange, but it wasn't at all hard to tell they were not a natal male. The distribution of facial hair in that patchy under chin pattern and the voice were the main give aways.
I mean, I don't give a toss how they present to the world beyond feeling awful that they felt so bad about themselves they were taking cross sex hormones and potentially having hideous surgery, but just as a general observation, they didn't convince as a male.

sorry for massive cross post. am slow and got a rant on

Oh, I’m sure they could see it. They just didn’t care.

Reasonable overview of literature:

“testosterone causes crime and aggression” myth. It’s a fun subject to talk about because the intelligent human physiological system is an amazing system. However, people who are not privy to the literature on testosterone in regards to race, aggression, crime, sex differences etc are only aware of whatever they read in pop science articles. So since they never read the actual papers themselves, they get a clouded view of a subject.
...

More studies need to be done on the complex interactions between sex, testosterone, aggression, biology and the social environment which then shapes the aggressive behaviors of those who live there.

Testosterone and aggression studies are interesting. However, you must know a good amount of the literature to be able to ascertain good studies from the bad, what researchers should and should not have controlled for, time of assay, etc because these variables (some not in the author’s hands, however) can and do lead to false readings if certain variables are not controlled for....testosterone does not cause aggressive behavior in men. The myth needs to die; the data is piling up for this point of view and those who believe that testosterone causes aggressive behavior and crime (which I have shown it does not, at least for men) will soon be left in the dust as we get a better understanding of this pivotal hormone.

notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/11/29/sex-differences-in-aggressive-behavior-and-testosterone/

The discussion then moves on to testosterone differences in race and women. Now, the added difficulty here is the very limited literature on the impact of exogenous testosterone (as will be necessary for trans men).

I searched entrez pubmed (search terms: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=transgender+men+testosterone+aggression )

This was the only relevant paper I found (usefully, from this year). Its conclusion is:
Testosterone therapy was not associated with an increase in levels of aggression in transgender men or a decrease in aggressive behavior in transgender women on antiandrogen and estrogen therapy, but other psychological and/or social factors, such as anxiety levels, appear to contribute to self-reported aggression in transgender people.

Materialist

Thanks. Did you link to it in a previous thread? I can't find it now and I could only remember the details vaguely but it was interesting.

There is huge difference between a male prisoner trying to pass as a woman, and a woman prisoner trying to pass as a man. Even if the transman was taking testosterone.

I do think it is problematic to women prisoners if a transman prisoner is abusive to women and/or had some sort of phalloplasty, (especially the kind that can be pumped up by squeezing the fake testicle) and there has been a recent case where a transman abused 2 women and ws convicted of obtaining sex by deception by claiming to be actually male, but we don't know whether they committed the abuse with a neopenis or object (obviously awful FFS)

BUT it is not difficult to segregate those transmen who are a risk to women in women's prisons or monitor more closely those transmen who would seek relationships with other women. And prisoners of this kind who have abused/ targeted women literally actually could be counted on one hand, possibly one finger.

None of the issues with transmen make it any more acceptable for a male born male man to be housed in the the female estate.

Third fourth spaces and/or segregation within single sex prisons is the very simple answer. It is only those who want what is impossible, unfair and unsafe that are making this difficult.

We as a society have already decided we need to deprive these people of their human right to liberty FFS .. because they have committed crimes, and sometimes very terrible crimes, so if that also means other limitations and compromises on their ideal life for the protection of others then so be it.

NO one is suggesting making it worse than it has to be in order to be cruel (even though we may find it hard to have anything resembling compassion for rapists/ murderers/ abusers and are very angry here but we still have our sense of humanity and decency - they clearly don't), but some people's idea of cruel is akin to a child thinking mummy is cruel because they won't let them play with matches. What can you do with that kind of crazy but say well them's the rules? You cannot reason with it, and certainly not by colluding and enabling.

No one is saying they should be kept in total isolation, unless they are seriously dangerous, but if trans only prisons are the most suitable balancing act for safety then that will have to do.

Safety and risk first, then looking at proper rehabilitation programmes.

AND NO MALES IN FEMALE PRISONS EVER.

Surely someone must have been able to see the potential for catastrophe before they embarked on it?

You'd think, wouldn't you? Common sense is surprisingly uncommon when politics is involved.

Self ID was about helping intersex people, and TRAs, never ones to pass up an opportunity to appropriate othe people’s issues, piggybacked onto it.

To clarify :

regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

There is an increase in criminal behaviour. However they remain women.

There was a prision competition recently for fitness. It was won by a transwoman and other prisoners said there was no point in their entering. Because even with hormones and steroids etc a women is unlikely to be as strong as a man. They will likely not have the increased height or reach.

A man is more of a risk to women that a woman, even if that woman presents as male.

Yes, transmen should be in the female estate, as in fact they always are. If there is a special transgender wing created then they could go in the transmen section but until that happens they should be in the female estate and treated as a potential higher risk female. They should not share a cell with a non male presenting woman though in my opinion.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885