Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

May have been said before but could we eventually make segregated wings in women's prisons for transwomen instead of in men's prisons? Then they don't need to feel their identity is being violated but the women can still have their privacy, safety and lack of pregnancy risk.

Irrespective of what you believe or not about the general trans community, why are we not accepting that convicted violent or sex offenders are likely to be liars with an incentive to place themselves among vulnerable women?

There's that too. By definition convicted sex offenders are people who can't be trusted. Why would you ever even consider taking them at their word? They've already proven that their word means nothing (and most of them will have lied like rugs during the trial, if for some reason you need even more proof that they're not trustworthy).

Being trans gender is not a protected characteristic. Having a GRC means you’re protected. Doesn’t mean you’ve done jackshit to your male body and doesn’t mean you’re a woman.

Recently there were cartoon penis stickers with "women don't have penises" written on put up in public places.

TRAs described these as being transphobic, a hate crime, something that trans women should not have to tolerate due to the emotional harm such things could cause.

And yet, women are transphobic if they find it emotionally harmful to share a space with an actual penis, attached to someone who says they're a woman. They just have to accept it and deal with it, and even expressing it is to be condemned and shut down.

That's not even considering the physical harm some trans women with a penis might cause women. Trans women's pattern, type, breakdown of crimes is more like men's than it is women's.

The risk of harm to women is too great to allow a dogmatic approach based on feelings rather than facts to influence policy and safeguarding.

That trans people also need protection is clearly true, but not at the expense of women.

Well, quite!

Wouldn't it have been so easy?

"Well now, Ms White: are you a real transwoman or a just-pretend-to-get-his-hands-on-vulnerable-women one?"
"Honest, guv, I'm the real thing! Butter wouldn't melt!"

Two Peneth also on freedom of speach around the trans issue by the lovely Johnathan Pie. www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/250528485612785/

Irrespective of what you believe or not about the general trans community, why are we not accepting that convicted violent or sex offenders are likely to be liars with an incentive to place themselves among vulnerable women?

Those sort of prisoners often lie about their mental health in order to get what they perceive to be special treatment. Why would they not lie about their gender too?

I hear you Lang, but I don't think even high risk violent women prisoners deserve to be forced to share showers etc with that sex-by-deception-transman, or a high risk pump up penis transman (it would bother me, I don't want be forced to see an real erection or a fake one thanks) so I'd like them segregated for their sake not the transman's.

I'm not that bothered if it is in a trans wing or a segregated unit in the women's prison or separate timetables, or a secure psychiatric unit so long as they are getting some serious treatment for their abusive behaviour before they are reintegrated with women. And I don't much care if it makes them feel left out.

So much easier to deal with when female offending is at considerably lower levels than male offending.

Hopefully it is already well managed within the female estate.

You see, I hear about all these men who are supposed to go mad and attack on sight of a transwoman.
There doesn't seem to be so much hard evidence of them.

Brownpaperteddy: "That's interesting although nearly 40 years ago. I wonder what human rights laws would say now? Given that being trans gender is a protected characteristic what does that mean for prisons?"

It seems to bear out Tara Hudson's experience. A prison authority without a clue what to do; inmates who were interacting with Tara, flirting with Tara, but actually no violence towards Tara.

But yes i agree re tweaking

"This is such a huge change in the fabric of our society" - is it? It seems to me like men demanding things of women, which is fairly standard.

but I do realise that one rule won't cover everything

No it doesnt

But it never did...so why the change?

This is such a huge change in the fabric of our society. I don't pretend to have a handle on it at all but I do realise that one rule won't cover everything.

It does feel as though all of the laws will need changing and not just trying to tweak bits and pieces or change one area and not another.

So the Baroness Hale ruling is interesting. That was in relation to the slogan on the cake wasn't it? Wonder if equalities law will over rule that?

As per a trans friend of mine if it has a willy its a bloke
Once she had her surgery she's a woman no willy, sexually functional vagina
and I fully accept that

those who are frankly dressing up are NOT the other "gender"

Lang agreed. Stop pretending trans is a thing.

The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment."

Does that have wider implications?

I as a woman, can claim discrimination if I've been treated differently to a man.

Going forward who would be a comparator for me then?

This seems to be a very recent ruling from Baroness Hale:

“Nobody should be forced to have or express a political opinion in which he does not believe.”
(Zimbabwe) v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2012] UKSC 38; [2013] 1 AC 152 [42].

twitter.com/RadFemLawyer/status/1050069596974272512

I've no idea how it intersects with the Bench Book and if it trumps it, so to speak. Perhaps the presiding figure (e.g., judge) will have the final decision about how this is handled in the courtroom.

This may help:

"There are very few cases which deal with this, but I would suggest that this view is supported by the comments of HHJ Jeremy Richardson QC in R (Green) [2] v Secretary of State for Justice [2013] EWHC 3491 (Admin). In that case the Court was dealing with an application by a male prisoner who had murdered his wife and who now wished to be considered female. Green did not have a dysphoria diagnosis but was treated by the prison and the court with the courtesy of being referred to as a woman (presumably socially, given that neither biological nor legal womanhood applied). At paragraphs 66 – 70 HHJ Richardson said that

“A comparator has to be found in order for there to be discrimination or for the claimant to show she has had less favourable treatment. The claimant asserts the comparator should be a female prisoner; whereas the governor contends it should be a male prisoner. There can be no doubt the claimant has a protected characteristic – gender reassignment. The claimant is, however, male. The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment."

From manfridayuk.org/2018/08/22/is-everyone-really-wrong/

He briefly mentions a transwoman being incarcerated on the same block. From what I remember, the prison authorities weren't quite sure what to do with her. She was allowed her own clothes and had a single cell, but she wasn't segregated otherwise. The other inmates treated her as a woman, even flirting with her.

I wonder what surgery the other prisoners imagine she had had?

Some I think though are exhibiting that behaviour as a symptom of not having their voice heard before.

Those with certain personality disorders can and will convince many people that they are in this group. Except those of us who've dealt with individuals with said personality disorders before, which seems to work as a sort of inoculation - once you've seen it you can't unsee is, and the behavior is like nails down a blackboard afterwards.

Going by some things the prison service has said they too are able to correctly identify many of those demanding transfer to the female estate as being in that group, but their hands are being tied/forced by all the TRA lobbying and the "why can't you just be nice to this poor vulnerable group?" stuff coming from some sections of the public.

Tanith

That's interesting although nearly 40 years ago. I wonder what human rights laws would say now? Given that being trans gender is a protected characteristic what does that mean for prisons?

I plan to start on Bunbury's "I don't really know much about this but I know better than all you hysterical harpies - a critical examination of misogyny in action" next.

Chapter 3: The Brass Face in Proclaiming Ignorance is particularly good.

I have no idea what the prison stock is like

This is becoming increasingly clear.

Brownpaperteddy: "Has it though? How have they housed trans women in the prison system until now? Have trans women with a GRC been placed in men's prisons?"

In 1980, Hugh Cornwell wrote a book, Inside Information based on his short prison sentence in Pentonville prison for a drugs conviction earlier that year.
He briefly mentions a transwoman being incarcerated on the same block. From what I remember, the prison authorities weren't quite sure what to do with her. She was allowed her own clothes and had a single cell, but she wasn't segregated otherwise. The other inmates treated her as a woman, even flirting with her.

He doesn't mention violence at all. Presumably there was none.