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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

585 replies

Freespeecher · 12/10/2018 12:28

Rickeyyy!!!

twitter.com/rickygervais/status/1050707771837026304?s=20

OP posts:
RestingButchFace · 13/10/2018 01:39

Fear thank you. I was trying to explain to a 19 year old who is very woke! I think I might have got through a bit, she came downstairs and said if she had to change at work with a person with a penI'd she would feel uncomfortable due to past trauma but had never considers the whole self id thing.

Binglebong · 13/10/2018 00:38

Transgender is not a protected characteristic, people who have had surgery and hormone interventions ie transexuals are

Also not the case. People who have or are in the process of gain a gender reassignment certificate are protected. To do this you (currently) you need two doctors to sign off on you having gender disphoria and to be able to prove you have lived as the opposite gender for at least two years (bills in new name etc). No surgery or hormones are required.

Fearandsurprise · 13/10/2018 00:22

Restingbutchface Love the Snickers analogy.

Materialist · 12/10/2018 23:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seafret · 12/10/2018 23:45

That took me ages so things have moved on, but surely a a transman with a phalloplasty is going to cause some kind of reaction even with high risk violent women. It is impossible that it wouldn't change something in the dynamic in some way. I can't imagine it would be helpful.

Also these high risk women may have had abuse from men as part of what made them what they are. Gaslighting all sorts. Maybe, maybe not. I acknowlegde your greater perosnal experience Lang.

But I do think that however much we don't want it to, we do register and react to appearance and sex and being trans by altering your physical appearance messes with our heads, in a similar way to how pronouns do I think. Like when Barrcker says type he not she and see how it affects you.

GivenuponHumanity · 12/10/2018 23:34

Brownpaperteddy: "That's interesting although nearly 40 years ago. I wonder what human rights laws would say now? Given that being trans gender is a protected characteristic what does that mean for prisons?"

Transgender is not a protected characteristic, people who have had surgery and hormone interventions ie transexuals are

seafret · 12/10/2018 23:30

Lang Can I reply with women do not have penises? Even faux ones.

Because I'd no more like to be raped with a faux penis than a real one if the transman was that kind of risk (which is very highly unusual, but I was talking about that specific example and even then it was not against a stranger)

Outside prison, I do accept transmen are female whatever they think, but I would still find it very unsettling to be changing and maybe having to share showers with a very masculine transman with a faux-penis, say at the gym. Or a Stephen Whittle look alike with a pump up penis.

To be honest it would make me wonder if they are male or female and how do I tell without having a good look at their hips, face etc. I have not seen a phalloplastied faux penis and I don't want to be having to look closely to work it out. I don't need that kind of head-fuck in my life any more than wondering whether a transwoman is a cross dresser or a genuine dysphoric or a transsexual or pervy man.

A butch or GC woman is entirely different and as you say very obviously a woman even through clothes but some transmen do go to greater lengths with their physique and my honed by experienced natural instincts that are pinged by men, would in some cases be pinged by a very masculine transman.

If plastic surgery and hormones weren't available this wouldn't be an issue, but they are and now it is. That is not my doing, it is the transman's intention to deceive/ pass after all.

I want to be able to trust people not have to think twice. And by think twice, sometimes I mean have that instant jolt of fear.

I think if you go to extreme lengths to try to be male and have a pump up penis that can be used to penetrate, then I think you do remove yourself from certain intimate women's areas where it might make other women worry.

Not excluded from women's healthcare, or from general groups, and if self ID is firmly stamped out then not from toilets.

But with where we are with the ambiguity around who is self IDing and who is not, then I think some transmen have excluded themselves from women's intimate spaces where I or another woman or a girl might wonder or worry.

I wouldn't want a smear from a masculine close to passing transman either (although that would be unlikely too I suppose), because again at the moment with all this self iD it would make me question whether it was a male or female. I do not want to have to be questioning that in those circumstances. I want it to be clear and safe and predictable. Same with a counsellor if I have requested female. But again highly, highly unlikely but not impossible.

I would hope that a transman would understand what they are identifying into when they transition, and recognise that males are generally a risk to women and that if you aim to appear as one, then the more you pass the more you are likely to provoke the same reaction from women as a male would in some instances, and I guess is what they actually want to achieve anyway.

Hope I haven't waffled. Just trying to be clear. It is hugely complex and highly unlikely and I am talking about certain specific circumstances and females are a lower risk, though personality disorder is associated with some transmen so there is that too.

catkind · 12/10/2018 23:20

It absolutely shouldn't AAK. Hence talking about third spaces where transwomen can practice their beliefs without imposing them on others.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 23:18

Why should the prison service accommodate the gender religion to the point where it's causing harm to the rest of the prisoners and potentially putting staff at risk too? If trans prisoners want makeup etc then maybe that's something where they can be given what they're asking for without causing harm to others. But that's as far as it should go/

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 23:11

You're asking why female prisoners shouldn't have to share showers with a trans man convicted of sexually assaulting women???

Just fucking STOP.

There are fewer than 20 highest risk women prisoners in the entire female estate. One of them is Shauna Hoare, who chopped up her boyfriend's stepsister into little bits and left her in a shed. Another is Rose West, and surely even you with your arrant ignorance, know about her. Do you think pitiful Carlos and her black pudding strap on might possibly be a bit scared to shower with either of them rather than the other way around?

Prisons are organised according to risk. There are very few high risk women prisoners but they have to share with someone.

BlueEyedBengal · 12/10/2018 23:08

If a trans women needs to go to a women's prison then can't the rule be she must have had the full bottom surgery. So there is no risks to the others serving time does anyone think that?

BrownPaperTeddy · 12/10/2018 23:00

LangCleg

"I hear you Lang, but I don't think even high risk violent women prisoners deserve to be forced to share showers etc with that sex-by-deception-transman, or a high risk pump up penis transman"

Why?

You're asking why female prisoners shouldn't have to share showers with a trans man convicted of sexually assaulting women???

RestingButchFace · 12/10/2018 22:58

I have been discussing the whole trans issue with my "woke" 19 year old dd. I tried to liken the issue in chocolate bar terms (chocolate always gets her attention) So if a Snickers said it was a Mars and it was to be treated as a Mars bar would people with life threatening allergies be forced to buy them, given that only a small but significant population have such allergies? Her answer was don't be ridiculous of course Snickers have nuts and are dangerous to allergy sufferers. My answer was so do a huge percentage of transwomen and they are capable of being a danger if not physically then mentally to women prisoners, she has gone up to bed with no response.

catkind · 12/10/2018 22:56

Yes good point, female prison staff also have the right not to be confronted with male anatomy unless they have agreed to deal with that. There have also been cases of that in the news haven't there? Where a prisoner pretended to be trans as a way of abusing female officers by trying to compel them to search him?

seafret, I'm seeing gender identity as a belief system I guess. Trying to find a way society could deal with gender believers in prison in a way that allows them to practice their religion without imposing it on others. For someone who genuinely believes they are a woman, being labelled male must be difficult.

Being labelled trans should not be though. Women clearly can't be forced to work in a trans wing, but can we impose male officers when that's against the inmates' religion? Or do we now need to recruit trans prison officers for everyone's comfort? (Flippantly, just send in male officers with wigs, not like they're going to discuss their private lives so the prisoners could know if they were trans or not. I know I know...)

Apologies if I'm being stupidly behind the arguments, I joined in late. I'm not a believer.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 22:44

At some point, society is going to have to clear up a tsunami of damage. And I, for one, will not forgive those who helped cause it.

Guess who'll be there to help clean up the damage (women, as usual, with radfems vastly overrepresented in those who care enough to help, especially given that many of the institutions that will need repaired like refuges were created by us in the first place) and who won't be.

If you want to be nice and feel kind and helpful go rescue a kitten rather than offering up women's spaces to anyone who demands access to them. Those spaces are not yours alone and are not yours to give away.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 22:34

This is such a huge change in the fabric of our society. I don't pretend to have a handle on it at all but I do realise that one rule won't cover everything.

Where were you when Chris Grayling took books away from prisoners? Have you campaigned about prison conditions? Indefinite sentences? JENGbA? Have you volunteered as a prison visitor or letter writer? Have you volunteered or raised money for charities helping women leaving prison? Or charities trying to help care leavers on a bad path stay out of prison? Or similar for women involved in drugs or prostitution?

(Me? About half those things.)

It's clear you have no understanding of the prison system or of those incarcerated within it. You even admit it yourself. Yet here you are, tying up women's time with arrant nonsense as you desperately flail around trying to find increasingly desperate ways to circumvent common sense and evidence.

This is typical of transactivism: trying to bend reality to fit an ideology in complete ignorance of systems. It would be pitiful really, were it not for the fact that it has its useless tentacles everywhere and is going to cause crisis upon crisis upon crisis because ideology does not change reality. At some point, society is going to have to clear up a tsunami of damage. And I, for one, will not forgive those who helped cause it.

LangCleg · 12/10/2018 22:24

I hear you Lang, but I don't think even high risk violent women prisoners deserve to be forced to share showers etc with that sex-by-deception-transman, or a high risk pump up penis transman

Why?

seafret · 12/10/2018 22:15

catkind their identity is not being violated; they are transwomen who by definition have 'transitioned' and are born male.

They might be being confronted with a reality/ truth they don't like, but a lot of people in prison will be feeling that same way when they wake up and realise where they are.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 22:13

That's another issue, why should female prison staff who applied to work at a women's prison be expected to manage male sex offenders?

catkind · 12/10/2018 22:11

Why? Because I think it would be more comfortable for the "Isla" posited a few pages up, would reduce the strength of the argument of the Karen Whites to be moved to female provision (they're already in female provision), and would achieve that without vulnerable women being forced to share a cell with a penis or anyone being forced to try to draw a line down the middle to say which transwomen are "genuine" and "nonviolent" and which are a risk. Just a thought, maybe it doesn't work.

seafret · 12/10/2018 22:10

typo sorry, *if transwomen are in groups together they can hardly complain that they are not being housed with other women can they.

seafret · 12/10/2018 22:09

Transwomen need to be managed by people with experience and expertise in male offending and male MH disorders etc., that means it will need to be near/ part of the male estate. Otherwise resources are spread too thin or they will be unsuitbaly mananged by female prison staff.

If trans women a wing groups together they can hardly complain that they are not being housed with other women can they.

arranfan · 12/10/2018 22:01

The women's prison estate is too small and too old to cope with that level of expansion. Relative to the men's estate it is small and already very limited with too many of the institutions too far away from inmates' friends and family to be able to keep up relationships against the day that they are released.

If self-ID is allowed, it will not take many prisoners to self-ID before they would require a disproportionate amount of the female estate and there just aren't the facilities.

I know I've written this up before with various links but AS is letting me down and I need to go to bed. (Many, many, train delays followed by tree on the line, a bus replacement service that didn't come, and now being dropped off with a long walk back...)

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 21:59

Do you really think they wouldn't then lobby relentlessly to be moved into the main section?

At some point the answer has to be "no". Continued attempts at "compromise" just encourage them to keep pushing.

RiverTam · 12/10/2018 21:58

Why? Stick ‘em in segregated wings of men’s prisons. Why should facilities for women make any provision for men?