Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

the prison service (though actually, it's not their call, is it?) would never had even contemplated putting him in a women's prison if it wasn't for the actions of TRAs over poor little Tara Hudson.

I can be enraged by more than one thing at a time, btw. I'm getting a lot of practise at the moment.

CaligulaBlushed

I think Karen White is a dangerous man, a rapist, and is a threat to everyone around them, particularly women.

How can you say that? KW says she is a woman. What criteria are you using to decide she is not, in fact, a woman?

And that's not even a little bit of a violation when you're going to prison for driving without due care and attention.

Not if it's offered to the convicted person as an option that they may wish to choose. It's no violation to be observed clothed in public - that's what clothes are for.

All a transwoman has to do is state that they identify as the female gender, but for legal purposes, is biologically of the male sex. If there is still any confusion or query, the person's original birth certificate could be consulted without them ever needing to opt for an unclothed observation or DNA test, unless they truly want to.

CaligulaBlushed

I haven't found firm ground with this yet but what I'm grappling with currently is why transwomen would want to be in a women's prison, regardless of the crime they committed. Presumably it would be to escape the men and in doing so preserve their safety, dignity and privacy? But if we put transwomen in women's prisons, again regardless of the transgression that led them there, are we not denying women the same right? And at the same time, also open women up to men who could also abuse the system? I can't see how to balance the rights of everyone as it stands.

This is the current rock I'm floundering on anyway!

But how are the prison service supposed to spot this obvious fact. They, we, the judges are not gifted with telepathy. Unless a "fake" transwoman makes the mistake of confessing that they were just trying to get one over on the system (as it would appear Karen White has done), there is nothing to distinguish them from a "genuine" transwoman, or simply a better faker who can keep a straight face about it for longer.

So you tell us - how do we tell? How do we do these risk assessments?

My risk assessment would be quite simple. XY chromosomes - men's prison (possibly specialist trans wing within men's prison), definitely not women's prison.

You owe us an account of how we tell the difference between "true trans" and "fake trans."

You can't even answer a question on an anonymous Internet forum can you?

What is a "real" transwoman?

Bear in mind if you specify genitals or surgery then you're transphobic.

If there's no way to tell, why should we let every single man who says he is a woman into a woman's prison?

Ricky is a HUGE animal rights campaigner also. I have a lot of time for him. Even more so after this. Even if I don't necessarily like all his comedy.

Caligula
So should a man who has not paid his TV licence be put in a woman's prison?
What's the difference between a man with a penis who has not paid his TV licence and a transwoman with a penis who has not paid their TV licence?

God I wish Verbeena was here

Oh god please no 😂

Caligula would you happily put a trans woman in with a group of female prisoners even knowing that many of them have been victims of sexual assault (some since childhood), are vulnerable and frightened of all men?

If so how do you justify doing such a thing?

@RiverTam I agree with everything you say. I honestly cannot see how and why this idea of self ID has ever been countenanced. Man says "I'm a woman", woman says "How are you a woman?", man says "Because I say so." Just madness and would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous.

do you think Karen White is a man? You, not Karen White, or the judge, or anyone else. You.

I think Karen White is a dangerous man, a rapist, and is a threat to everyone around them, particularly women. I don't think you have to be a genius to spot that. I don't understand how you're not up in arms at the prison service for somehow not spotting that blatantly obvious fact.

saying that someone who has had SRS is a genuine transwoman and someone who has not isn't a 'proper' transwoman is very transphobic isn't it?

It's also meaningless if self-id happens. I do hope all the people who believe TWAW if they've had full surgery to remove their male genitals argued this within the consultation...

nice dodging of the question.

do you think Karen White is a man? You, not Karen White, or the judge, or anyone else. You.

And yes, saying that someone who has had SRS is a genuine transwoman and someone who has not isn't a 'proper' transwoman is very transphobic isn't it?

God I wish Verbeena was here, we could have a right old laugh at how YET AGAIN that is not what I said. Not even close! Go on, tell me again that's what I said, even when it's here in black and white.

Why do we have separate male and female prisons anyway? Many people would say that one reason is to protect women from the risk of rape/sexual assault by a man (i.e. a penis-haver) as, no matter what her crime, the risk of rape is categorically NOT a part of her legally-sanctioned punishment.

Even though the majority of penis-havers- including those in prison for non-sexual, non-violent crimes - may have no intention whatsoever of ever committing a rape, the fact that they are physically equipped for it means that it is still too great a risk for them to be imprisoned at close quarters alongside women.

That being the case, what possible justification could any sane person ever give for imprisoning a penis-haver WHO HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF USING SAID APPENDAGE TO COMMIT RAPE - alongside women???? Primary consideration must always favour the potential victim rather than the proven aggressor.

As a very accommodating concession, it MIGHT theoretically be acceptable to allow said penis-haver who now identifies as a female into a female prison if he/she agrees to completely surrender the weapon that they used for their crime by having it permanently surgically removed. After all, nobody would dream of letting a knife-murderer keep their knife on going into prison, would they? Why ever could somebody identifying as female want to own a penis, anyway? Or is that different, because it involves the criminal having to choose to make a sacrifice rather than everybody else being forced to?

Whatever gender (or none) you identify as, it's perfectly simple to avoid being imprisoned for rape as the vast majority of penis-havers do. All you have to do is.... nothing at all.

Don’t try to put words into my mouth or make this personal Cali.

I work alongside trans people, it’s not an issue, I care about them as colleagues, we rub along fine.

Caligula do you think Karen White is a woman?

Karen White doesn't think Karen White is a woman, from what I've read! Didn't he admit to pretending to be trans to access women in prison? This is exactly the kind of thing prisons should be well aware of; criminals being, well, criminal.

And yes, saying that someone who has had SRS is a genuine transwoman and someone who has not isn't a 'proper' transwoman is very transphobic isn't it?

I am so happy that Ricky Gervais is engaging on this. Ricky like most people can spot the TRA attempts to enforce thought policing a mile off- and i’m guessing he probably also knows that human biology is not a completely made up concept.

I think it is completely the duty of the prison service to identify dangerous inmates and to keep other prisoners safe from them.

Saying something is a "duty" is easy, but what measures do you suggest the prison service use to distinguish between male-bodied people who might be a danger to women and those who definitely won't be? I think you are overestimating the ability of the prison service to do this. How would they do it? Criminal record? But only 6% of rapists (those who are ever charged) are convicted, and studies estimate that between 6 and 25% of men are capable of rape. Psychological testing? There are plenty of instances of plausible prisoners released by parole boards, who then go on to commit the same horrendous crime again.

Caligula, the transwoman who has had SRS and is in prison for a totally non violent crime is not the issue here.

Karen White doesn't even have a GRC and yet was able to go to a woman's prison, because that was the level of disregard that the system had for women's safety.

And TRAs are campaigning for that woeful level of safeguarding to be even further eroded.

That is was people are fucked off about.

You CAN be a woman in law,

Lovely, now just tell me what being a woman is, ta

What does "fully transitioned" mean though Caligula?

It's very transphobic of you to delineate between someone who's said they're trans and someone who's had surgery and is living the stereotypical life.

ThereHi is no division now between those two.

In that case they have to be treated the same, and meanwhile women need to be protected.

Caligula .. Oh we’re back to the same old argument of just how awful a man has to be before he’s not a woman.

Either they are or they aren’t women - why are you even trying to introduce a tiered system? I believe it’s considered transphobic?

I’ll stick to sex segregation thanks.