Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

CaligulaBlushed - This is not about emotion. I was designated of the female gender at birth on my birth certificate, therefore I belong in a female prison. If I was transitioning to become male I would expect to be placed into a female prison until fully transitioned and then the same as other males. Then I would expect to be transferred to a male prison. Prisoners of both sexes are often segregated because of the crimes they have committed so I would expect that to be taken into consideration as well. Every prisoner has a right to safety while they are incarcerated. If you have committed crimes which see you jailed you must expect to have lose some of the rights which law abiding citizens are entitled too...

'And I won't let my caring about one group mean I throw another to the wolves.'

Except you are doing exactly that Caligula. With women, the cunty kind (as someone on here so delicately puts it )

Woman = adult human female.

C’mon, surely everyone knows that’s the GC view by now?

VickyEadie Karen White is a rapist.

I know. I was pursuing the absurdist line that MN and the TRAs require of us.

You can't have a sliding scale of what is a woman.

Seems like a lot of people who call themselves gender critical think you can.

Really? Because all I see is women saying women are XX and anyone born XY is a man, regardless of what they do to themselves.

You're the only one who appears to be suggesting you can differentiate between true trans and fake trans.

VickyEadie Karen White is a rapist.

I wonder how many hours days it will be before The Guardian/BBC label Ricky Gervais as "far right"?

And I won't let my caring about one group mean I throw another to the wolves. I won't ever become a transphobe in the name of feminism.

What about the actual women prisoners? Where in your feminism do they count? From all the woke comments you’re making, not ONCE have you mentioned what the vulnerable female prisoners. It’s all about the trans identifying males. You should be ashamed of yourself. It’s the TRAs and pandering women that caused these vulnerable women to be abused. THEY are the victims, not some confused man, but the actual women that are expected to shove over and let trans identifying males into their spaces. You’re not a kind, understanding or decent feminist if you put their needs before actual women.

Karen White said "she" (your words)

1. MN requires us not to 'mis-gender' people who say they're women.

1. Karen White is continuing to transition.

1. Your comments about KW are actually transphobic, by Stonewall definition.

Just a reminder about how stark the differences are between the two prison populations.

90% of violent offenders in prison are male.

98% of sexual offenders in prison are male (in fact there are more male sex offenders in prison in the UK than there are women in total for any crime).

46% of women in prison report having suffered domestic violence.

53% of women in prison report having experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse during childhood.

31% women in prison have spent time in local authority care as a child.

Most women in prison are there for non-violent offences - property crime, handling stolen goods, drugs offences.

This is the pool of vulnerable women that the TRAs want to put violent male rapists in amongst.

I can't see how to balance the rights of everyone as it stands

Well putting someone with a penis and a history of sex attacks against women in a women’s prison is only considering the rights of the offender.

You can't have a sliding scale of what is a woman.

Seems like a lot of people who call themselves gender critical think you can.

What's the difference between a man with a penis....and a transwoman with a penis

this

With bells on! Why are some penis owners seeking privileges that the other class of penis owners don't have?

Yes, not all trans women are criminals, obviously. Neither are all men. But the men still understand and accept that they aren't allowed in women's spaces for this rain reason.

What about young attractive lads sent to male prisons? Should we put them in the women's prison too to protect them?

But if we are only going on the word of someone, which is what all the TRAs are arguing is the way the system should work, then how do we know how they truly feel?

A lot of systems are based on how people "feel". We undertake psychological assessments, that's all you can do short of reading someone's mind. Even if you didn't have to have one to get a GRC it seems pretty basic that you would have to have one if you were going to prison for a violent or sexually motivated crime. How that didn't happen for Karen White is a disgrace.

I don't understand how you're not up in arms at the prison service for somehow not spotting that blatantly obvious fact.

Because there isn't a blood test or nice little birth mark stating 'genuinely convinced of being internally female despite outward appearance' and 'pisstaker'. Nobody knows. It's not possible to tell, you go on the subjective opinion of the person. Who may be lying. Or may not be. Is that a fair risk to ask women to suck up?

Facts also must be faced that being genuinely convinced of being internally female, and being properly trans doesn't mean the same person isn't also a sex offender. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. Is that a fair risk to ask women to suck up?

How do the women who will be imprisoned with this male bodied person and expected to live/toilet/shower alongside them feel about it?

Have they made an informed choice regarding their safety, privacy and dignity?

Have they seen their interests fairly weighed up against the interests of the male bodied person who wishes to have access to them?

Do they consent?

Does anyone give a fuck if they do or not?

This whole this is ridiculous.

You can't have a sliding scale of what is a woman.

A Netherlands study showed that trans women commit crime at the same rate as men. Because they are men. Not at the same rate as women.

Women are at risk from male violence all day Every day. Cutting a man's penis off doesn't make him a woman.

Trans women don't want to be in a male prison. Why? Because men are a danger? Bevause they are vulnerable in that situation? But it's ok for women to have to have a man in their prison?

Trans women, post op are trans women. They aren't women. It's that simple. They can live, dress and act as they want. They are still as likely to commit a crime as man so they are still a risk.

Great trans prison wings. Don't ask (or rather force) women, yet again to make room while putting themseleves at risk

'Women's vulnerability counts too, you know.'

This needs saying, again and again and again, because I'm hearing an awful lot of handwringing about the impact of all this terrible business on the poor old trans community, and limited fucks being given about the impact of this on women, who were after all the VICTIMS of this individual's attacks

How can you say that? KW says she is a woman. What criteria are you using to decide she is not, in fact, a woman?

Karen White said "she" (your words) pretended to be trans. That's a pretty easy criteria to apply to decide when someone is not actually a trans woman.

But you keep referring to transwomen who have had SRS, who don't have a penis, as if they are a 'different' sort of transwoman to the ones who haven't? Or at least that how it comes across?

I'm responding to posters to see if THEY think there is a difference. Because if they DO think there is a difference I want to know where they draw the line.

Karen White doesn't think Karen White is a woman, from what I've read! Didn't he admit to pretending to be trans to access women in prison? This is exactly the kind of thing prisons should be well aware of; criminals being, well, criminal.

But if we are only going on the word of someone, which is what all the TRAs are arguing is the way the system should work, then how do we know how they truly feel?

'Just madness and would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous.'

Absolutely, and it wouldn't be entertained for a second in relation to any other protected characteristic. I'm white but I identify as black - excuse me????? I'm 25 but I identify as 60 so can I have my pension please - WTF????

gender if it were a normal, everyday trans woman, no reason to believe she posed a particular threat to women, yes I would. The women are housed with the women. If a prisoner is scared of people who look like men TO THEM, would you take away any prisoner who reminded them of a man? Even if they weren't a trans woman? Or would you only make the TRANS woman who they think look like men live somewhere else?

But a trans woman who doesn't pay her tv licence should be locked in with the men?

Yes. We call it segregation by sex and we have it for risk management reasons. A penis in a shower is triggering for a survivor. Women's vulnerability counts too, you know.

Next?

God I wish Verbeena was here, we could have a right old laugh at how YET AGAIN that is not what I said. Not even close! Go on, tell me again that's what I said, even when it's here in black and white.

But you keep referring to transwomen who have had SRS, who don't have a penis, as if they are a 'different' sort of transwoman to the ones who haven't? Or at least that how it comes across?

The third space solution is the only thing appropriate for prisons. I cannot see any other way around it. We cannot distinguish "true trans" from "fake trans" and then the trans activists can sort out who gets to go into the the trans wing, without any risk to females. If they want self-ID, then so be it.
Let the males with gender dysphoria sort out their own systems for their own space, where they can be appropriately supported by staff who are trained in trans specific issues.
No males should get access to the female space. It creates a "pull factor" that attracts the really psychopathic offenders and is far too dangerous for females. Simply unacceptable.
It is not for women to take on the extra risk of violence or sexual assault or discomfort or emotional burden involved with bending over backwards to try to accommodate males with gender dysphoria in the spaces designed for females only.
No.