Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

Thanks for that link MaryDollNesbitt. I knew he'd tackle this eventually.

I just saw the pie thing on my fb and wondered if it was in any way about this.

Shame he hasn't done a skit on the poise posters. (Yet!)

You really need to meet some trans inclusive women, we're not the super woke numbskulls you seem to think we are.

Not really seeing all that much evidence of that tbh

Has anybody mentioned Jonathan Pie (played by Tom Walker), the satirical journalist, yet? I've been keeping a close eye on his YouTube channel, wondering whether or not (ahem . . . WHEN) he would weigh in on the trans debate. JP has amassed quite a big following for his explosively funny 'reporting' and a great deal of people watch his videos around the world.

Mentions Graham Linehan's police warning and his personal support for a wider debate on trans issues in YouTube video about free speech.

Twitter page here, where he retweeted Ricky G's post about Karen White yesterday.

Also posted about how the word 'woman' is now seen as 'anti woman' with a link to the BBC 'womxn' article here. A lot of support for how fucking ridiculous this whole thing is becoming in the comments.

Karen White is trans. There is no way around that. White self identifies, has lived in role - intermittently, but Bunce does it once or twice a week when the mood strikes and has won a women's award - who knows what degree of dysphoria White does or doesn't suffer. It's irrelevant.

By Stonewall's standards, by the Prison authority standards, White was trans. Some rapists, sex offenders and dangerous people are going to be trans, the way some gay people are, some men are, some women are. Trans is never going to be a guaranteed way to prevent any sex offending - if it was then for God's sake we could just push this on the male population, encourage all of them to transition and male violence would end overnight.

White is trans. That's fine. White's fully entitled to be trans. So is anyone else. Their offending behaviour doesn't change their right to their own identity, gender expression, authentic self and all the rest of it. What White proves is that transwomen cannot be given open, free, self identified rein to walk into women's spaces because some will use that as a means to offending, and some offenders will see transition as a very useful means to offending. That harms everyone.

Third space.

I wonder if MNHQ might consider bringing on Richard Garside, Frances Crook or whomever to discuss what an appropriate root and branch reform of the Criminal Justice system and prison estate would look like? In general, and addressing this issue as well?

I would LOVE that.

I wonder if MNHQ might consider bringing on Richard Garside, Frances Crook or whomever to discuss what an appropriate root and branch reform of the Criminal Justice system and prison estate would look like? In general, and addressing this issue as well?

(Note: it is possible to be both a vulnerable and a dangerous high risk prisoner at the same time. In fact, most of them are.)

Male transgender prisoners do present significant issues for the prison system. As we know, the proportion of Cat A or sex offenders among them is about 3x higher than in the general male population and more than 100x higher than in the female population. You can't have trans-specific prisons because you can't shove low risk prisoners in with high risk prisoners just because they share a trans identity and also, recidivism is much higher when prisoners are accommodated too far away for their friends and family to visit regularly. And you can't put them in with women for obvious safeguarding reasons and the difference between patterns of offending.

The only cost-possible, safeguarding-effective response is to improve capacity and facilities for vulnerable prisoners within the male estate.

Karen White is very obviously a fetishistic cross dresser, which comes under the trans umbrella as Stonewall explain it.
I am heartily sick of any trans person who commits a crime then being labelled as “ not trans “, when M trans commit crimes at the same rate as all other males.

Prisons will remain binary. The only choice on the table is whether that binary refers to sex or "gender identity". I care about women and I neither subscribe to the Religion of Gendered Souls nor think the UK should become a theocracy, so I choose prisons segregated by sex.

Yes, this is absolutely my position.

(Pancake as far as I know they're currently being recorded by gender. The 2003 Sexual Offences act defines rape as penetration by a penis. Occasionally a woman - old-fashioned, cunty kind of woman- gets convicted under common purpose, e.g. she held the victim down while her male partner committed the rape, but these cases are very rare. So when you see in last years stats that 6 rapes were recorded as being committed by "women" I think you can be pretty certain that at least 5 if not all 6 of these "women" were born with, and still in possession of, a penis at the time of the offence.)

Givenup- no, you are wrong there. The protected characteristic is for someone with a GRC . Contrary to popular belief you do not need to take hormones or have surgery to get one. You do need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, but you don’t need to have any medical treatment.

Don't go around telling people Stonewall said you can't say someone isn't trans when they've SAID they aren't trans. Stonewall support TRANS people, not people who have said themselves that they're pretending to be trans.

I'm about to go out so don't have time to read the full thread - I just wondered where this came from. Has Karen White actually said he was pretending to be trans?

Apologies if this has already been answered, but for the purpose of crime statistics, are these rapes recorded as being committed by a male or a female?

One of the main benefits of suggesting a third space is to watch the people who object.

Easiest way to do that with the strongest safeguarding: segregate prisons by sex and extend facilities for vulnerable prisoners including, but not limited to, gender non-conforming prisoners.
Agreed, but if we were to put them all in solitary they would take legal action for discrimination. So it does need some thought. And I agree that there is so much that needs to be done in the prison system first, that third spaces are unlikely to happen in the way previous posters have suggested. As a baseline, I agree that prisons should be segregated by sex, and that gender is an expression of personality only and should be given exactly as much weight legally as any other expression of personality.

Musings on third (or more because it's a slippery slope and all that will happen is endless whining from non-binaries who are all posh and will never go to prison anyway to get their own spaces too) spaces are pointless because THIS. WILL. NEVER. HAPPEN. Prisons are in a mess regardless of gender vs sex issues and the scale of investment required to make them not a mess is so huge it would never get down to third spaces on its priority list.

Prisons will remain binary. The only choice on the table is whether that binary refers to sex or "gender identity". I care about women and I neither subscribe to the Religion of Gendered Souls nor think the UK should become a theocracy, so I choose prisons segregated by sex.

It's technically possible a transman in clothes could be read as male, but having seen more phalloplasty pics than I'd like there is no way one could be mistaken for a penis.

Not to mention that only a few hundred have been performed in the UK and I very much doubt any of the people who have had them are in prison. An even smaller proportion have had phalloplasty than have had vaginoplasty.

The regulations have got to cover off all eventualities, I guess.

Easiest way to do that with the strongest safeguarding: segregate prisons by sex and extend facilities for vulnerable prisoners including, but not limited to, gender non-conforming prisoners.

It is irrelevant whether they have retained their original male genetalia or have transitioned to a surgical approximation of female. They are still biologically and genetically men and have all the physical attributes that this entails i.e height, strength, etc.
Exactly and this is why the transman red herring is exactly that. Transmen retain female bone structure, no matter how much anabolic steroids affect their bodies. A female bodybuilder on steroids, even with male pattern hair loss and an enlarged clitoris, is not man-sized. And that is someone who trains incredibly hard to build muscle.
We don't see many trans people on real life, there's so much online visibility based on carefully posed photographs, and as other posters have noted, there's a difference between a close up of a bearded, hairy chested person and that person in real life who might be slight, wide hipped and short. It's technically possible a transman in clothes could be read as male, but having seen more phalloplasty pics than I'd like there is no way one could be mistaken for a penis. Metoidioplasty looks more like male genitalia but resembles a micropenis. Again it is possible a woman could read a naked transman with a metoidioplasty as male, so I guess it's something to be considered.
The regulations have got to cover off all eventualities, I guess.

I'd guess that Gervais would have absolutely no shits to give for whatever the doc would threaten him with

Aren't relatively junior NHS doctors normally a bit busy? I never have been able to work out where he finds the time to tweet.

The doctor seems to have gone a little quiet. Maybe he's actually doing some work. Hopefully not on any actual patients.

It's unsurprising that Ricky hasn't been targeted by TRAs for this post. I expected a 'just a word of warning' from the dr.

I don’t think trans women should be housed in female prisons. It is irrelevant whether they have retained their original male genetalia or have transitioned to a surgical approximation of female. They are still biologically and genetically men and have all the physical attributes that this entails i.e height, strength, etc. it is a failure of basic safeguarding to house them with the female population. I agree with PP who suggested that segregated provision for trans women must instead be made within the male estate.

Excellent thread so far.
So should a man who has not paid his TV licence be put in a woman's prison?
What's the difference between a man with a penis who has not paid his TV licence and a transwoman with a penis who has not paid their TV licence?
Because there isn't a blood test or nice little birth mark stating 'genuinely convinced of being internally female despite outward appearance' and 'pisstaker'. Nobody knows. It's not possible to tell, you go on the subjective opinion of the person. Who may be lying. Or may not be. Is that a fair risk to ask women to suck up

Facts also must be faced that being genuinely convinced of being internally female, and being properly trans doesn't mean the same person isn't also a sex offender. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. Is that a fair risk to ask women to suck up?

How do the women who will be imprisoned with this male bodied person and expected to live/toilet/shower alongside them feel about it? Have they made an informed choice regarding their safety, privacy and dignity? Have they seen their interests fairly weighed up against the interests of the male bodied person who wishes to have access to them? Do they consent? Does anyone give a fuck if they do or not?

Crack on. Go for it. Create gender neutral spaces which will be a paradise of inclusiveness for everyone who wishes to use them. What you feel ok to do with your body, where you put your boundaries, who you feel comfortable toileting and showering and undressing and sleeping alongside is wholly your decision and I'll applaud you being as inclusive as you like. My body and my boundaries however are equally mine, and equally my decision. You don't get to decide this for women, you don't get to guilt, shame and coerce women into surrendering their boundaries to benefit male born people. That's not inclusive at all. It's not even basically moral

Women have repeatedly argued for third spaces. Which is actually really bloody big of us, because we shouldn't have to be campaigning for solutions to transpeople's problems when Stonewall are sitting on a big pile of money and doing dick all.

Thread greatest hits so far