Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

Those who support putting rapists in women’s prisons are guilty of rape by proxy.

Men in one prison.

Women in another.

Be as emotive and spluttery as you want about "our poor sons", but the cold hard logic of it needs to be reduced to that. For the sake of our sisters, mums, daughters, and women in general.

Can you explain how it's NOT transphobic to recoil in disgust at the idea of sharing a space with a totally non-violent trans woman?

Can you state, with confidence, that you know for a fact that sharing female only spaces with a male bodied trans woman means there wouldn’t be violence?

There have always - until now - been separate prisons for men and women
because:

• we can't tell in advance which men are the ones who would rape or strangle women

• it is cruel for women to be locked up 24/7 with male prisoners who are usually much stronger than they are.

A completely separate wing of the men's prisons should be set aside for transwomen, even those with GRC
That way they are safe from men and not made to feel uncomfortable by them, without risking the safety & comfort of women prisoners

Women prisoners can't choose not to be there and they are there 24/7,

so that is quite different to the situation outside prison,
where some of us agree that a transwoman with a GRC could access access single sex loos, changing rooms etc

Does your humanity extend only to natal women then? Our poor sons

If a rapist was attacking men in prison then I’d think they shouldn’t be in the general population.

Can you explain how it is transphobic to say that a male bodied transwoman should be put in a male prison?

Can you explain how it's NOT transphobic to recoil in disgust at the idea of sharing a space with a totally non-violent trans woman?

Hang on a minute - Women not wanting to be locked in with male bodied people to shower, toilet, sleep etc are transphobic?

Can you just repeat that so I'm quite clear that's what you mean?

CaligulaBlushed Karen White says that Karen White is a woman.

Karen White maintains this position, even now.

Is Karen White a woman, in your opinion?

The people all too keen to defend Karen White and wittering about misgendering and all that shite, don’t seem in the slightest concerned about the women raped and sexually assaulted.

But my god you can’t misgender someone, it’s so violating.

What the fuck do you think rape is then? A bloody party?

Ffs.

Caligula I appreciate you coming on here to debate.
Could you help to answer some questions as this topic is very confusing for a person with ASD who is asking me about it.

If a person has anorexia, and is dangerously under weight, do we believe them when they say they are fat? And do we give them liposuction and a gastric band? If not, why do we believe someone who says they believe that have the wrong sex organs?

Could you explain what someone needs to do to “live as a woman” (or as a man) which you mentioned earlier? How can this be done without resorting to oppressive stereotypes?

Still advocating for the men, then.

Does your humanity extend only to natal women then? Our poor sons.

It's a certain kind of person who thinks humanity should only be applied to one sort of human. If you're that sort of person it doesn't make you a feminist, it makes you something very different indeed.

No transphobes on Mumsnet, no siree.

Can you explain how it is transphobic to say that a male bodied transwoman should be put in a male prison?

On the Karen White case, the TRAs seem to be divided between those who say:

a. White is genuinely trans, but dangerous, so should be separated from other prisoners. And you know, this isn't an issue about trans at all, it's an issue about what to do with violent prisoners, move along, nothing to see here.

b. White is a fake trans! White is just pretending to be trans in order to get into a women's prison. Naughty White. Real trans people aren't rapists.

Of course, both positions are utterly, moronically stupid, but it is almost amusing to see the way they can't even get the party line straight. I imagine it won't be long before group a accuse group b of being transphobic.

Given they are usually in for far more minor crimes than men (not paying tv license for example ) and that their crimes are very frequently in order yo support a family member, do you feel that their incarceration should be made far worse by being locked in with men?

But a trans woman who doesn't pay her tv licence should be locked in with the men?

YES. There are wings for vulnerable prisoners, they should be in one of those. In a MALE prision. There's a good argument for their having a single cell though.

I am quite impressed at your internal editing though, that that's what you came away with from my post. I have now answered your question so please will you answer mine?

But a trans woman who doesn't pay her tv licence should be locked in with the men?

Yes.

Why the hell should the women be locked in with the trans woman?!!!

Your disgust and revulsion at the very idea is palpable.

No transphobes on Mumsnet, no siree.

Caligula Karen White has NOT said they aren't trans. KW presented as a woman at the sentencing hearing and is said to be continuing their transition.

I can't see how to balance the rights of everyone as it stands

Wanting legal entitlement to a group's provision and resources by subjective choice, while not having the characteristics of the group, is not a right. It's a want. It should not be a right.

It will not balance, because men cannot be given this entitlement without massively affecting the interests and sex based rights (actual rights) of women.

It worked after a fashion when this was about a tiny proportion of men with a diagnosed condition and very tight, demanding gatekeeping. It no longer works because it's now about any man, at any time, with no gatekeeping at all.

At this point, no. Male access to female provision under any circumstances needs to end. Instead, third space gender neutral (or in prison situations trans specific) spaces and provisions need to be the alternative available for people choosing not to use the sex segregated provision.

FairPlay for Women have started a relevant petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228767

Also Stonewall support a massive number of people under their "transgender umbrella", including "feminine men" and "masculine women". They've gone mad.

Don't go around telling people Stonewall said you can't say someone isn't trans when they've SAID they aren't trans. Stonewall support TRANS people, not people who have said themselves that they're pretending to be trans.

Stonewall include a vast range of people as 'trans'. I'll say it again - Karen White is continuing to 'transition' - who are you to say that KW is not trans?

I just haven't singled out just the NATAL women for my concern.

Still advocating for the men, then.

I often wonder what LibFems/ TRAs hunk when they see mainstream news outlets report on these cases.

When they see the comments from dozens upon dozens of average people pointing out the obvious flaws with self id, saying TW are never women and often just taking the piss out of the whole issue. Are they still so adamant that the majority of society are sympathetic to the cause?

But a trans woman who doesn't pay her tv licence should be locked in with the men?

Why the hell should the women be locked in with the trans woman?!!!

3. Your comments about KW are actually transphobic, by Stonewall definition.

Don't go around telling people Stonewall said you can't say someone isn't trans when they've SAID they aren't trans. Stonewall support TRANS people, not people who have said themselves that they're pretending to be trans.

From all the woke comments you’re making, not ONCE have you mentioned what the vulnerable female prisoners. It’s all about the trans identifying males.

I've mentioned vulnerable women in prison quite a lot, thank you very much. Scroll back through the thread. I just haven't singled out just the NATAL women for my concern.

Women don't have penises.

Not ever.