Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

a non-violent man can still impregnate a woman, and given how vulnerable many women in prison are, and how many will have been abused by men, I really can't see a single argument for allowing men into a women's prison.

And just because someone hasn't been imprisoned for a violent crime doesn't mean they won't be violent. Violent people and abusers don't go around with identifying tattoos on their foreheads.

What does seem clear is that you believe it's 'transphobic' (naughty, wrong, unkind, pick your word) for women to not believe a male bodied person is physically, actually, really female if they say so.

Unless they rape you, and then they were lying.

Basically your policy of balancing women's rights is you'll blame the authorities and remove the offender/right for the offender to be a woman after a woman has been harmed. Women will be kind of canaries for who is and isn't lying.

Unless of course the women say wait a fucking moment, I'm a person with legal rights too and you can take your ridiculous, sexist, dehumanising attitude to women and stick it right up your inclusion policy.

There are a lot of posts and I'm not reading them all, sorry, I'm just responding to the ones that are around my posts when I post them.

Ah, now women are the violent ones too.

I forgot, the "female brain" means that women aren't capable of violence. We're only able to do the laundry and the cooking. And to forget to pay our TV licences.

Can you explain how it's NOT transphobic to recoil in disgust at the idea of sharing a space with a totally non-violent trans woman?

Let's just pick this apart a little shall we?
recoil in disgust is interesting phrasing. I might say 'allow women agency to consent, or not, to whom they share intimate spaces with'
Bonus points for understanding that consent under pressure of being branded a bigot is not freely obtained.
Sharing a space. Come now. We're not talking about sharing an office. We're talking about being locked in, in close and intimate quarters, with a convicted sexual offender.

How can we tell which ones, of the sex class that commits 98% of sexual assault, are totally non violent btw? If you have a trick, please share it. I'd value that information very much as my teen daughter goes into the world.

Your disgust and revulsion at the very idea is palpable.

You didn't answer though.

Trans woman doesn't want to be locked up with people who have penis' and a history if crime. So therefore women have to be locked up with with people and that have penis' or used to have penis....And have a history of crime.

Why? Why is it women being forced to make room? Put themseleves at risk?

KW isn't a pretend trans woman. Trans lobby do not believe having your penis removed makes you more of a woman. cal you can't have it always.

caligula A man can only be a woman in law because a bunch of people made it up, and was arrogant enough to override what women might think about it, after a ruling by a judged forced the gov to let a man change his birth cert so he could marry another man. It is not based on science and rationality, only easing someone's feelings/ MH distress. Is anyone going to declare me a milionnaire because having no money is incredibly distressing? It is nonsense, based on some people's well meaning but naive 'kindness'.

This 'genuine need' from gender dysphoria is no more of serious genuine need than homelessness, other severe mental illness, poverty, cancer etc, grappling with the gov and DWP if you are disabled etc. These serious needs get very little help. The difference is that gender transition was thought to have little to no monetary cost - the real and severe costs are borne by women.

You can bet your life that if this would cost money, it would not be happening.

And it probably had a lot to do with equalising women's pension ages with men, since that was part of the 2002 case that forced changing birth certs - the man was transitioning and wanted take his pension early as a woman.

Of course compensation for KW's victims is going to start costing money, as well as all the other foreseeable complications of this arrangement.

For all legal purposes, if there is any doubt or controversy, your biological sex will be determined by a (clothed) visible inspection of your physical attributes or, at your request, by an unclothed visible inspection. If there is still any ambiguity, it will be determined by a DNA test to verify whether you have XX or XY sex chromosomes.

And that's not even a little bit of a violation when you're going to prison for driving without due care and attention.

If the man had male on his driving licence then there would be no problem, whether he 'dresses like a woman' or believes himself to be a woman or whatever. Simple and not a violation, just facts. People would just say "OK he is a transwoman" and move on.

We can care about transpeople without needing to pervert the law and logic and making women pay for it.

Caligula do you oppose sex segregation in all circumstances then? What about a man saying 'I identify as a woman' suddenly renders the women comfortable and safe?

It's a certain kind of person who thinks humanity should only be applied to one sort of human. If you're that sort of person it doesn't make you a feminist, it makes you something very different indeed.

It’s a fucked up version of feminism that centres men. I centre actual, real natal women in my feminism and if that means keeping men away from vulnerable females, then tough. I’m never going to feel guilty about that. You would rather risk the actual safety and mental wellbeing of natal females in order to pander to the feelings of trans identifying males. I don’t give a shit what that says about me. The misogyny is so ingrained in you, that you can’t even recognise it.

I’ve never met anyone who is ‘totally non-violent’. Violence is always lurking under our bald-chimpanzee skin just waiting for the right trigger. Even those committted for non-violent offences become more violent within the prison environment. The only thing we can do is separate those with the massive physical advantages that comes with male physiology from those without.

Though what the hell a woman is I've no idea. Are you saying you somehow separate them from the transwomen who you can't define?

Ah, now women are the violent ones too.

Isn't the logical end point of that to not segregate prisons by sex at all then?

Still refusing to define transwoman.

Until you do there's no point even talking.

You mean one thing, Stonewall means another, society thinks another.

Can you state, with confidence, that you know for a fact that sharing female only spaces with a male bodied trans woman means there wouldn’t be violence?

Can you state with confidence that you know for a fact that sharing a female only space with a female bodied natal woman means there wouldn't be violence? Men together, women together, violent and dangerous people elsewhere.

Can you explain how it's NOT transphobic to recoil in disgust at the idea of sharing a space with a totally non-violent trans woman?

The 'totally non violent' has nothing to do with it. Males and females, both violent and non violent, are separated in these situations for many reasons.

lol seriously, you're arguing now that it's fine because we're talking about people with total SRS? You know that's rubbish. And yes, even the tiny, tiny population with total SRS (even tinier if you're looking for the prison population of people with SRS)is male bodied, of course they are.

I don't want to shower or disrobe in front of any men - even ones who say they're women.

I include my dad, my brothers and all male members of my family in that.

And I don't see why any woman should be forced to, especially those incarcerated who cannot then take themselves out of the situation.

Can you explain how it's NOT transphobic to recoil in disgust at the idea of sharing a space with a totally non-violent trans woman?

Depends if you normally get changed, share bedrooms etc with nice safe men who are not your husband/partner. And if you are cool with children doing that too. I would recoil in disgust at the bloody Pope wanting to share a shower with me. I think my Dad would be pretty horrified at having to share a shower with Mother bloody Teresa.

These boundaries are really normal and extremely healthy.

Does your humanity extend only to natal women then? Our poor sons
Your poor sons maybe, leave my sons out of it. My sons have been raised to respect women's boundaries and not to force themselves into women's spaces.

I would be horrified at sharing prison space with any man, even if they were in for a minor offence
Transwomen are men

Most of the time that doesn't matter and I'll happily use preferred pronouns etc

but if I'm banged up against my will by the state 24/7, then the state should not violate my human rights and risk my safety, by locking me up with a man

Anybody who would put an unprovable feeling in a man's head over the safety, privacy and comfort of vulnerable women is a complete and utter arsehole.

Hang on a minute - Women not wanting to be locked in with male bodied people to shower, toilet, sleep etc are transphobic?

Not all trans women are "male bodied"

Unless you'd look at a body with breasts and no penis and say, "yeah, that's a male body, those are the bodily features of a male, definitely". In which case I would refer you to your biology textbooks.

Everyone's body is different. Every trans person's body is different.

So transphobia actually means 'unwilling to get naked in front of a random male bodied person'?

Your disgust and revulsion at the very idea is palpable.

The disgust and revulsion I feel is at the male entitlement and lack of respect for women and their safety, privacy and dignity that would put males in the female estate.

AspieAndProud yes!