Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

No, I like it when those with a diverse range of views post too Bonions

Of course that doesn’t mean they don’t get challenged....

That sounded sarky rather than genuine, but it was meant genuinely!

Caligula, would you mind answering the question about pregnancy please?

I’d also be interested to know where you think transmen should be housed.

I really appreciate Caligula posting here because it's helping me to unpick some of the difficulties with balancing everyone's rights. I hope you post more.

If prisons put transwomen in with women, then this would violate the human rights of some women, e.g. Muslims, to practice their religion.

Mixed sex prisons are institutionally racist

Caligula
Which prison do you think transmen should be sent to?

So when we say we don't want women to be locked up with men. You're saying oh I agree. (Because transwomen aren't men. To you.)

In order to progress the conversation, perhaps you can specify what makes, in your opinion, a genuine transwoman.

Caligula

You're saying that people are twisting what you say because when you say transwomen you mean a woman and when we say it, we mean a man.

By all means keep reiterating it in every comment. But calling it twisting what you're saying is really tedious. It derails the thread and makes the whole issue torturous to discuss.

Caligula i do hope you will take the time to read the posts. That is almost more important than you replying. We have a lot of points, so take your time.

But a trans woman who doesn't pay her tv licence should be locked in with the men?

Male people don't tend to go to prison for not paying their TV licence. That's women - 3/4 of all tv license convictions. I very much doubt any vulnerable MTF would be sent to prison for that. As pp have said a third space solution needs to be found.

so according to Caligulas argument, he was correctly in women's prison at the point he assaulted those women

Bloody good point. The 'gender segregation as long as they are nice' model proposed is an approach of saying 'well let's try it and see if something bad happens and then if it does we can react to that'.

Whereas what we should be doing is trying to stop the bad thing happening in the first place. It is not acceptable to be using female prisoners as guinea pigs to test whether a male prisoner is dangerous to female prisoners or not.

My body and my boundaries however are equally mine, and equally my decision. You don't get to decide this for women, you don't get to guilt, shame and coerce women into surrendering their boundaries to benefit male born people. That's not inclusive at all. It's not even basically moral

This sums it up beautifully.

You really need to meet some trans inclusive women

I've met plenty. Crack on. Go for it. Create gender neutral spaces which will be a paradise of inclusiveness for everyone who wishes to use them. What you feel ok to do with your body, where you put your boundaries, who you feel comfortable toileting and showering and undressing and sleeping alongside is wholly your decision and I'll applaud you being as inclusive as you like.

My body and my boundaries however are equally mine, and equally my decision. You don't get to decide this for women, you don't get to guilt, shame and coerce women into surrendering their boundaries to benefit male born people. That's not inclusive at all. It's not even basically moral.

Transwomen can commit criminal offences like GBH and murder, while being perfectly genuine in their wish to be a woman

Transwomen can also commit rape, while believing they are women

Do you wish to decide if transwomen are women depending on how serious their crime was ?

Cals head must be ringing like a bell

having to look at 'real' transwomen like Sophie Cook and over-ride the evidence of their own eyes and brain, and substitute in 'woman' every time

i think it's why the allies are often to touchy

it must be exhausting

if they weren't doing their level best to remove basic safety provisions for women and children I could almost feel sorry for them

You did say that Caligula at 14.32.

its' exactly what you said. 'Transwomen' are males. Men.

You're not answering the basic fundamental question!

No one's twisting you, you're not replying. Because you know you're wrong.

I don't give a damn how someone looks, or their personality, they could be the loveliest, most girly man in the world - still a man, belonging in a man's prison.

Prisons aren't segregated on the basis of personality - nice prisoners over here, nasty ones over there. Because that's completely subjective. We segregate on the basis of objective reality, on the basis that one sex is overwhelmingly more violent that the other.

Calling women who object to sharing intimate space with males transphobic DOES make you a woke idiot I'm afraid.

Not what I said. Again. Verbeena was right, there really is no point trying to discuss things with people who are determined to twist every single word you say.

The sexual assaults White committed in prison weren't rape. There are a whole host of other ways men can sexually abuse women, it's why we have sex segregation.

We haven't abandoned sex segregation in this country because it's mean to all the nice men. The nice men pretty much get women don't want to be hassled or have to deal with naked men in their spaces when they're vulnerable.

How that male feels inside his head at the time makes no difference to the objective experience of the woman. Transwomen are male. There is no way to change that. Women are not delusional on the whole and don't predicate their privacy, dignity and personal boundaries based on the subjective expressed feelings of the male in front of them. Unless they're in urgent need of Women's Aid and the Freedom Programme.

I absolutely agree transwomen should have the right to be housed separately from a male prison. I absolutely disagree that the one and only alternative is that women should take in every male who doesn't happen to fit the male system or want to be there.

And most trans women are male bodied......So your point is?

Does your humanity extend only to natal women then? Our poor sons

Not humanity, no. Feminism. It's about, for and by, women. Not men, however they identify. Certainly not men who promote regressive stereotypes by saying they can feel 'like a woman'.

Can you explain how it's NOT transphobic to recoil in disgust at the idea of sharing a space with a totally non-violent trans woman?

This manipulative sleight of hand that insists by inserting the word trans in front of something it completely changes how people should feel about it. It's bollocks. It's horribly controlling.

I don't want to shower with my father-in-law, nor do I want to shower with my son's best friend. Both of whom are non-violent.

Them telling me they feel like a woman, wouldn't change that. Funnily enough.

"You know a lot of them are just as physically incapable of rape as natal women don't you?"

Bald. Faced. Lie.

I’m assuming army barracks are too, for example

They are

We don’t do this because we think all male soldiers might be rapists, presumably! We do it because it presents many kinds of problems to house male-bodied people with unrelated women

The wee one born in Camp Bastion is testament to that!