Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

And what you're proposing directly harms trans women to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women.

That doesn't follow. Heaven forbid anyone should do anything good for actual women! A third space solution does not harm MTF trans people. We can all see the harm of taking women's rights to consent to males in their spaces away.

Haven't RTFT - will do later. But looking at twitter on gervais tweet - should we go through and reply to those who've said something long the lines of "that is a man" and make them aware of the consultation? Or is that a bad idea for some reason I can't think of right now ?

I think the onus is on whoever is designing the new system to explain why it would work better than the old one, for ALL involved (not just the individual trans person that you like, but the hard cases involving psychopaths like Ian Huntley).
What are the rules you propose, and how would you enforce them?
What are the safeguards?
How many women would need to feel uncomfortable, unsafe, be violated, or protest before you re-assessed?
The evidence suggests that same sex provisions with a third space for trans people seems like the most elegant solution to me.

You can stand up for the rights of one group of people all you like, but if you start to not care whose expense it comes at you have a problem.

Yes. And I'd say that is exactly what is happening when trans activists insist that it is necessary for a transgirl to use the girls' facilities at school, instead of the separate facilities offered. They didn't care about the feelings of the girls even though the transgirl was being accommodated safely.

How does a third space directly harm transwomen?

Anybody who can say- Some transwomen have penises. And? in such a dismissive way the day after Karen White was given a life sentence is absolutely a rape apologist.

You lost the argument. You know you have.

Surely women prisoners, many of whom have experienced sexual and domestic abuse in their lives, have a right to be housed without feeling re-traumatised by the presence of men in the prison.

Whether those men perv at them or not. Touch them or not. Say abusive things to them or not. Their very presence makes those very vulnerable women feel unsafe. They shouldnt be in there.

Caligula how does a third space directly harm trans women?

Bingo! I'm out.

And what you're proposing directly harms trans women to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women.

Not only have you spectacularly and deliberately missed the point, you are actually talking complete shite. Unmitigated and dangerous shite.

You’re a rape apologist.

CaligulaBlushed

No, don't tell me it's difficult. Tell me what checks and criteria could be used to ensure that a male transperson will never sexually assault a women or girl. Or that a girl will never feel uncomfortable undressing alongside a male transperson.

When authorities look at risk assessment, what is an acceptable risk? Do the individual women and girls get informed consent about the risk they are taking?

but what you are proposing directly harms women to make some men feel good about themselves

And what you're proposing directly harms trans women to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women.

Caigula could you describe extreme feminists (in the context of this issue) please.

Cali cares about all humans, but it seems that definition covers men and trans women only, women is not included.

Because by cali’s definitions, women don’t exist because women and trans women are the same.

Therefore women ( by our definition) have no rights, and do not exist as a concept in the mind of the Woke one.

Trans women are women to me

And there you have it. it's about someone you know, someone you want to be nice to, someone you love. Good. And I'm sure they are lovely. Still not a woman, however YOU choose to perceive them.

You don't get to impose your choices on every other woman. How utterly arrogant.

The answer is no.

I think Caligula is doing an excellent job of repeating themselves in a louder and louder voice while doing that teenage "and so? Na Na na " thing.

There are only so many times the obvious truth can be explained to the hard of thinking before it's best just to leave them alone.

and I know the transwomen you know are lovely cal

and I know that we should look after vulnerable people

and i know that we should all make an effort to be nice

but what you are proposing directly harms women to make some men feel good about themselves

it really, really does. it already has in fact

There was a time when the Nazis thought they were right, and those fighting against them were the enemy.

That's very true. The Nazis and a good number of the people of Germany were trying to achieve the very best outcome for the aryan race in the aftermath of WW1. They started out just trying to build up their nation after the injustice they felt they'd suffered, and in the end they didn't care whose expense it came at for them to put right those injustices. They didn't care if it made them anti-semitic. They were standing up for the German people, getting the best they could for them.

You can stand up for the rights of one group of people all you like, but if you start to not care whose expense it comes at you have a problem. I say the same to extreme TRAs as I do to extreme feminists. If your cause causes you not to care who else gets hurt you've gone too far.

I really didn't mean to upset you, I really didn't, that's not something I want. I'm just saying my piece on the subject.

I guess Cal is struggling to make patronising, passive aggressive, projection sound adult

Twisty twisty twisty twist....

Oh for goodness sake, can we stick to grown up conversation please?

As I said before anyone sick enough to support the incarceration of vulnerable women with penis owners must think rape is just fine and dandy.

It’s ok for women to be raped, abused, attacked and intimidated.

Twisty twisty twisty twist....

not really Cal

what you are proposing is in fact pretty much the model that is being followed. It's how Karen White got into a women's prison (at that point he had not been charged with rape)

he then went on to abuse, attack and intimidate fellow prisoners

so not so twisty. you are directly advocating for a system that allowed this to happen to women

Caligula you are advocating that women (a high proportion of whom have been victims of male violence) can be locked up with people with penises with no means of escape. Do you not see how utterly disgusting that is? Where is your care for these women? Even if the penis owner's is 'non violent' what about the privacy, dignity and comfort of these women? What about their right to shower, sleep in peace?

Not just Nazis.

Communist China used to label anyone who didn’t agree with their PC totalitarian ideas as Capitalist Roaders, and threw them under the bus.