Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

Yes, Bernard - going "the full Germaine" as I like to think of it is immensely liberating, and an instant cure for that nagging chronic headache caused by the cognitive dissonance of trying to hold onto a position which is internally inconsistent.

It does not harm a transwoman to put them in a third space in the prison estate, or provide a third toilet space, or refuse them permission to do smear tests on unwilling female patients, or for them not to compete against women in a sporting competition.

Given the relative numbers of Category A prisoners, the women’s estate would be the ‘third space’ - men’s prisons and transwomen’s prisons being larger by far.

It was actually incredibly liberating when I was able to say to myself

transwomen are men
transmen are women

they may wish otherwise but i don't have to get involved in their mind games except due to pronoun enforcement on mumsnet

That’s why TRAs don’t engage in argument, they cry transphobia and shut down discussion by calling you a bigot

Aye, because they have no reasonable or factual argument. Much easier to bawl and shout and intimidate and threaten.

oh yes, it's the reason behind no debate for sure

but from where I am, she's being gaslighted by someone in her life that she cares about

I expect she doesn't see it that way and is in fact grossly offended by the suggestion, but that's what I see

That’s where you end up if you try to argue.

That’s why TRAs don’t engage in argument, they cry transphobia and shut down discussion by calling you a bigot.

Lang I did ask that poster to define extreme feminism, but they didn't get round to answering. Maybe Ricky Gervais is now an extreme feminist.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Cal

first of all she actually had the ovaries to stick around for a debate, so kudos there.

she came over as someone with a dog in the race - she is close to transwomen that she wants to protect

so here she is on Mumsnet, defending an absolutely indefensible position - namely some people, on the proviso that they say they are women and haven't be been convicted of rape yet should be placed in female prisons

She came across as pretty smart. the arguments against are cast iron. she must be expending a lot of mental energy to keep believing what she believes

but when you start buying into the idea that people can change sex that's where you end up

when people try to make others pretend something that just isn't true, that's where you end up

Because there is no rampant transphobia

I notice there are no deletions on this thread. Why hasn't Caligula been reporting all the rampant transphobia on this thread, after all they were saying yesterday how transphobic FWR is compared to AIBU.

I say the same to extreme TRAs as I do to extreme feminists.

Please provide some links where you have spent an equivalent amount of time remonstrating with extreme TRAs. I'd be very interested to read your conversations with them. Where are they? Twitter? Reddit? Any TRA fora? Do let me know.

"tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian"

But that is my position. Prisons should be sex segregated, full stop. And the male estate should have proper facilities for vulnerable prisoners, including those who are gender non-conforming.

@enrichedatthegulags, I don't know Twitter too well, but I'd have thought it's better to say "Stonewall says anyone who says they're a woman is one, so Karen is. Many of us think they've got this wrong and we're saying so in the government consultation here".

Surely defending placing be-penised rapists in with a group of literally captive highly vulnerable women goes way beyond apologise. I'd go for "accessory" myself.

My iPad added the misplaced apostrophe, apologies.

As half of transwomen prisoners are SEX OFFENDERS then portraying trans prisoners as though the sex offenders are a tiny minority’s of the whole is disingenuous at best.
We have sex segregation for a reason, and that reason hasn’t changed. We need to keep women’s prisons for women and only women.

Truth hurts.

But won't someone think about our poor sons?

See I thought I was thinking about my sons, raising them to be decent, respectful and not misogynistic bastards. Can’t believe I’ve been doing it wrong!

Well I said they must be a rape fan, so rape apologist is pretty mild really. And accurate.

Aye I’m expecting a ban for that comment, but I stand by it.

The poster I called a rape apologist, in response to me saying that their own arguments didn’t exclude Karen White from a women’s prison, said “some trans women have a penis, so?”

If that’s not being a rape apologist I don’t know what is. In the exact context of the conversation up until that point.

But won't someone think about our poor sons? Not allowing them to ogle naked women in the shower whenever the fuck they feel like it?

I know cal has gone, but just for any lurkers

And what you're proposing directly harms trans women to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women

women being raped is not equivalent to men feeling uncomfortable about the fact that they're gender non conforming

I would expect that to be self evident

to make some women feel like they've done something really heroic for women

Women care more about the physical safety and mental well-being of other women than the unprovable inner gender identity of males shocker.

It does not harm a transwoman to put them in a third space in the prison estate, or provide a third toilet space, or refuse them permission to do smear tests on unwilling female patients, or for them not to compete against women in a sporting competition.

None of these things cause any harm to transwomen whatsoever.

However, if each of these things are disregarded women will be and have been harmed.

This is not an equivalence situation. It's the powerful class attempting to stamp all over the scant provision for the less powerful class. All the dressing up in the distracting rags of pretend oppression won't change that.

You lost the argument
I think it's quite amusing that someone would come on a feminist board, defend a policy that allows male bodied people into women's prisons, and then act surprised when some one accuses them of being a rape apologist. I mean, WTF did they expect?