Ricky Gervais chimes in over Karen White

Well yes, exactly. I think a 3rd space is vital.

Certainly not an argument for trans men are women, as many of you appear to be arguing.

It would be interesting to know how many FtMs are in the prison system, wouldn't it?

It would be interesting. Particularly as posters on other threads have said how studies have shown that the effect of testosterone actually causes trans men to offend at similar rates as natal men.

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

No idea. Nobody asked them when it was a person with a penis put in beside them. What makes you think they’d be asked about this?

All it does is show that a 3rd space is needed. Because it isn’t men being told to sacrifice their spaces, or having people forced (sometimes literally) on them is it? Ever.

But how would female prisoners feel about sharing a cell with someone that looked, and possibly acted, like a man but who you would all consider to be a woman?

BrownPaperTeddy "So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?"

Yes ... since they are much less likely to abuse other female inmates than any male ... and I rather suspect most, if not all, would want to be in the female estate for their own safety and wellbeing.

It would be interesting to know how many FtMs are in the prison system, wouldn't it?

So they've decided that logically women-who-identify-as-men can never be put in with men because men are dangerous ... but men-who-identify-as-women should definitely go in with women?

None of this makes any bloody sense!

Would a transmen want to be in a female prison?

I don't think it would be safe for them to be housed with a male prison population though, despite the beard. But I don't think TM are housed with male prisoners.

Transmen are women

i doubt even the most determined transman would want to be in a mens prison

i'm not convinced there actually are any transmen currently in prison? I've certainly never heard of any

Well, funnily enough Brown there doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much campaigning going on to get transmen moved to the male estate. One might almost think it was because it was blindingly obvious to everyone that, being biologically female, they would not be safe in the men's estate, so no one is that stupid.

I have only ever seen Tara-Hudson type petitions and "look at this poor transwoman banged up in a men's prison" type articles for transwomen. I have never seen one for a transman.

Not even relevant: there is no question of transmen moving to mens facilities no matter what the degree of their transition. The authorities refuse to consider it because of safety.

However a third space fully enables transmen to have an alternative.

So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?

In a third-space solution you would establish a trans men's facility. I doubt they'd want to be in with the general male population, anyways.

I’ve stopped even believing in the value of the third space. I now simply don’t think that trans is a thing, a real thing. It’s an umbrella covering a range of things, and dealing with none of these involves the mangling of language and the removal of sex-segraegated spaces.

I don't understand why you think it's so awful for a 70-year-old transwoman to go to a male prison? There is a vulnerable prisoner unit.

Then the opposite argument must be true - a trans man, who transitioned 20 years ago must, by your logic always be a woman.

Despite many on here, and other threads, stating that the effects of testosterone on trans men makes them as dangerous as natal men.

So you would be ok with a trans man, looking just like a man (muscly, beard) but who maybe still has a vagina, being housed in a cell with a woman?

That to me makes no sense.

Or do you see trans women and trans men being housed in the male prisons?

In which case you don't believe that people can't change sex.

oooh. that post from heresyandwitchcraft has just helped me go full Germain.

None of their stuff is my problem. It really isn't womens' problem to solve.

Wow. How liberating.

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

Saying no to male people in female spaces isn't throwing anyone to the wolves. It just means that transpeople desire to remove sex segregation doesn't work, therefore another solution needs to be found.

Why should women being asked to fix a problem that we played no role in creating?

This. It’s akin to telling us to change our behaviour/dress to avoid being raped instead of actually telling rapists not to rape. It’s not and shouldn’t be our responsibility.
(I’m not comparing trans women to rapists, I’m saying that they want this, they should fight for it and leave us out of it. In actual fact I think they’d have a lot of support if they did!)

I will support alternative solutions, ones that don't erase women, or put women at a disadvantage, or increase women's risk of being harmed.

This. In big fucking neon flashing letters.

Whatisa good enough reason istheir behaviour, like RAPE, which absolutely means they shouldn't live alongside women, whether you think they're actually a woman or not.

You realise this comment means you are a transphobe right?
Either they are women and treated as women forever more, or they are men. You cannot pick and choose, that's not the stonewall way.

But that is my position. Prisons should be sex segregated, full stop. And the male estate should have proper facilities for vulnerable prisoners, including those who are gender non-conforming.

This is my position, too. I also think creating this kind of system would be a good opportunity for policy-makers to also look at how gay males in prison are treated, because they apparently have a really rough time.

they may wish otherwise but i don't have to get involved in their mind games

Yes. This I found incredibly liberating, too. I've spent forever trying to pretend I can find something that will help me agree with these ideological claims, and trying to untangle this knot. But the prison question helped me realize that it's for the males with dysphoria to solve for themselves. Give them their own space and they can decide what to do with "true trans," "fake trans," Karen White and Ian Huntley. None of them are female so none of them should be allowed in the female space. It's a blanket NO. NO to every male.

Why should women being asked to fix a problem that we played no role in creating? I will support alternative solutions, ones that don't erase women, or put women at a disadvantage, or increase women's risk of being harmed. Third spaces seems best, because then trans people can have autonomy over who is allowed to claim the trans identity, services, and facilities. And they can design them to meet trans specific needs (which are very different to female needs).

It is not my responsibility to manage anyone else's feelings or validate their identity, trans or not. I cannot take on the burden of always prioritizing another person's needs, or first consider their every insecurity, or pretend I agree with everything they say.

I have my own beliefs, feelings, and opinions, which are just as valid as everyone else's.

Feminism is for females, and cannot be expected to now also accommodate males.

Women are allowed to put themselves first.

Aspie . I think that was his slightly tongue-in-cheek point!

Actually, the causing death by dangerous driving one is an interesting choice, because as we all know, a much celebrated and very famous transwoman "woman of the year" did indeed kill someone while behind the wheel of their car, prior to transitioning IIRC, a fact which appears to have led to no sanctions against them whatsoever. (Admittedly it was in America which has a rather more cavalier attitude to road safety overall).

Jeffrey Archer, for instance, served his entire sentence in an open prison, which he later said felt a remarkably similar experience to being in boarding school

I had no idea prison conditions were so grim.

"tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian"

Apparently her transition didn’t make her a better driver. What gender did her car insurance indicate?

Unlike the female estate, which has no category A prisons, the male estate offers a wide range of prisons of differing degrees of openess/severity (Jeffrey Archer, for instance, served his entire sentence in an open prison, which he later said felt a remarkably similar experience to being in boarding school). So it's not the case that the 75 year old death-by-dangerous-driving case would find themselves in the same prison as Karen White.

Absent the existence of category A prisons for women, however, the prison authorities would have no option but to place White with vulnerable women serving sentences for much lesser offences, were he to be placed in the women's estate again.

For the true humanitarian it really is Sophie's choice you're asking people to make, and a lot of people are calling on feminism to make sure women choose to throw the trans woman to the wolves.

It’s onky ‘throwing transwomen to the wolves’ if you think a third space populated entirely by transwomen is a dangerous place.

More dangerous than the male prisons they currently inhabit, in fact.

Surely that can’t be true? Wouldn’t they be swapping recipes and knitting patterns and posting pictures of their genitals on Instagram and all the other ‘lady things’ women are supposed to do?

"tough cookies, you think trans women are men so that means you have to send 70 year old Isla who transitioned 45 years ago (including full surgical reassignment) to a men's prison for losing control of her car and hitting a pedestrian"

This is a perfectly defensible position to take. Provision should be made in the male estate for men who have gender dysphoria. It's a psychological condition, like any other.

Would that be easier for your friend? No. But you can't go changing laws on that basis. There are many delicate, sensitive, frightened men for whom prison would be awful. And that absolutely needs addressing. (If nothing else, this issue has made me realise quite how many situations are allowed to perpetuate).

But the answer isn't to sacrifice women in the process. It just isn't. That's a solution that will present far, far more problems than it will resolve.

Quite apart from anything else, criminals lie. Your solution relies on trusting people who have the most to gain by being deceptive.