Jewish Chronicle: Could transgender rights infringe upon religious rights?

Just noting that many of these religions are otherwise oppressive to women and ideas about sexual segregation are often based on controlling women and not liberating us.

Our enemy's enemy is not always our best friend.

I don't think they categorise people with strict religious beliefs as worthy of protection. Just think how often people arguing for women's rights are described as 'right wing Christians'. This is intended as an insult, not as an argument for protecting our rights.

If they view Christians as right-wing bigots, why would they view Jews, Muslims or any other religious group differently?

I think some of these religions are already viewed with suspicion by liberal groups about the reasons they segregate in the first place (viewing women as always needing to be protected from men, or dishonoured if they have contact with non familial men) as being misogynistic and oppressive.

I tend to think that there is some truth in that, but regardless of whether we agree with these religious practices, women from these strict religious groups have more right to be in women's public spaces than any man with a self identity problem.

Sticking up for people who don't believe the same as you can be very difficult. Perfect example is the way many TRAs will not stick up for the right of people to express the opposite opinion to theirs. It only seems to be GC people who support a plurality of views, including the right for people to express the opposite opinion to theirs.

The only way 'modest' women such as orthodox Muslims or Jews get supported in their views is when this support is seen as'freeing' them from the patriarchal misogyny of their religion. Supporting religious women's right to women's spaces will be presented as supporting the misogyny that enforced this segregation on them in the first place.

I think religious groups should organise on this because lots of ‘be kind’ type people hate women who don’t want to just be quiet service humans.The same be kind people do want to be seen to stick up for minoritised groups which would include some religious communities though.

I think she wrote about the fact that orthodox women can't. Not that she can't.

If groups from the observant Jewish, Muslim and Christian communities could entirely divest themselves from engaging with the alphabet soup of TQA+++ and clearly state that they cannot support the removal of single-sex spaces and the teaching of gender ideology to children, that would be powerful. That's it. They embrace their Equality Act 2010 rights (belief).

And completely disassociate the TQA+++ from the LBG. Just focus. Focus on this nonsense about performative gender ideology and kink in schools, and leave the private sphere of sexual orientation well alone.

If the Muslim community dare to say anything about this it will just be used to show how "mediaeval" Islam is, with more calls for them to go back where they came from.

In fact, a majority Muslim school seems to have been particularly chosen to pilot a sex-education course teaching children how easy it is to change sex, so that the protests from Muslim parents would make objecting to that course seem like the stuff of backward thinking people.

I'm amazed our Muslim community has kicked off more about this.

Two main methods of booting a member of the Labour Party are antisemitism and transphobia.

Both exist of course , especially in the Conservative Party.

His initials. Dayan is his title. His name is Yisroel Yaakov Lichtenstein.

"Dayan YY Lichtenstein"

Are people stating their chromosomes now?

I always thought it interesting that religion was one of the few exemptions to the GRA (so women couldn't identify into a privileged position) when it was first introduced. It showed that religious organisations knew the implications of this, and protected their own interests. After that, they don't care if women are thrown under the bus.

The other main exemption to the GRA of course is in hereditary privilege - a woman can't identify as male and then claim a right over her younger brother to inherit a title. Odd that.

Podcast here about how gender ideology affects Muslim women:

Depressing, isn't it? The fact is that most religions are just as misogynist as the societies they spring from.

Whether these women are going to have their rights and protected characteristics brushed aside as less important than those of males with other protected characteristics?

Yes, I think so. Given that this thread is from almost 4 years ago and there hasn't been an uproar about this, it seems that are either ignoring it or don't care.

I always thought it interesting that religion was one of the few exemptions to the GRA (so women couldn't identify into a privileged position)when it was first introduced. It showed that religious organisations knew the implications of this, and protected their own interests. After that, they don't care if women are thrown under the bus.

Well of course. Have they only just realised?

JC in recent years has had a lot to say about freedom of speech and cancel culture. https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/all/how-britain's-young-academics-became-so-deeply-radicalised-1.521496?reloadTime=1651622400011, for example. We know first hand what happens to people who are not allowed to express opinions contrary to mainstream.

Although many of the 'modern', more liberal streams of Judaism are pro-trans (bizarrely, IMO) it's not a subject that has appeared much in the JC. I'm not a regular reader, so may have missed mentions of it, by I don't recall any articles mentioning it. I wouldn't be surprised if they are steering clear of trans issues because of the possibility of a hostile reaction spilling into vicious anti-Semitism.

Recent Scotgov consultation on GRR vaguely brushed upon this, as I think Kate Colemen of KPSS is Jewish and mentioned the issue. There was, I believe, a meeting with a Muslim women's group that discussed the same issues.

Whether these women are going to have their rights and protected characteristics brushed aside as less important than those of males with other protected characteristics?

Well, that would only happen in a country with deep-seated institutionalised misogyny, wouldn't it?

What I think needs to be stressed is that the progressive arm of Judaism (Reform, Masorti, Reconstructionist) are very pro-trans.

It's the Ultra-Orthodox and some Modern Orthodox who are against it, mainly because of rules governing separation of the sexes.

But it isn't black and white. Recently at an Orthodox synagogue in my city there was a "scandal" whereby a transwoman was counted as a man to make up the compulsory minyan (the ten adult Jewish men required for a prayer service). This proves that transpeople are welcome at orthodox synagogues, but will be recognised as their biological sex.

Zombie thread it may be, but it's still an interesting one because it hasn't been addressed, especially in relation to the big, taxpayer-subsidised public institutions that now have mixed sex toilets, and shops and gyms and leisure centres that have mixed sex changing rooms.

ZOMBIE THREAD FROM 2018

Why are Jewish people complaining about trans people, when Judaism was one of the first religions to talk about trans people in the first place?

I mentioned this on Twitter once. I was told be someone thry don't give a shit about "stupid people." I did point out there was a lot wrong with that argument snd that it was bigoted but to no avail.

Let's be realistic about what 'education' means, since it's a bastardised attempt to appropriate disability equality language and approaches.

• Collect together the people whose attitudes you want to change

• Give them lots of information about the experience of the group you would like to be better accepted. Explain the challenges, give the personal perspectives, essentially remove the 'strangeness' and ensure they relate to the person as human like themselves. Explain any unusual and unfamiliar kit or equipment or appearance. Support with feeling confident in what to say/do when faced with unfamiliar experiences, behaviours, sounds, appearance etc.

In disability situations this mostly works, because most of it boils down to: a) I've never seen this before, I don't understand it and it's alarming or upsetting b) I don't know what to say or do and I feel bad for the person.

This is failing to work, because the people protesting self ID aren't lacking in experience, understanding or empathy with trans people as a group, and these are not the issues that are causing concern.

So 'education' looks like 'tell you all about trans people and how hard life is for them' with some personalised stories. The audience goes yes, we know, we've read plenty of personal articles, we have trans friends, some of us are transsexual/LGBT ourselves, now would you address the real, actual, factual issues here about conflicting rights, sexism, homophobia and male violence?

You can 'educate' all you want about 'the GRA doesn't threaten women's rights' and 'male violence doesn't really exist' and 'NATALT', the facts are not with those arguments.

At that point, all that's left is #nodebate, name calling and threats, plus informing you that if you do not conform to rightthink it is right and just that you no longer have access to public spaces.

I have long suspected that when implications of self-ID registers with the British Jewish community, many of whom already feel battered by recent events emanating from the same stable of activist types, there will be a shit storm.

There are certain tenets of Judaism that are simply non-negotiable for observant Jews, and (biological) sex segregation is a biggie.

Imagine telling Jewish women they need 'educating' out of their religious beliefs.

I know Jewish feminists have explored these beliefs and the origins of sex-based oppressive practices; that doesn't mean that they don't understand the importance of sex-based safe spaces and legal protections for women - far from it.