Could Karen White Be Transferred Back to a Women's Prison? Yes

Yes there are a couple of Lord Patels I think.

Ah yes, Lord Patel... the former social worker from Bradford, now chair of social work Commision or some such body. What an interesting man.

This was the piece that the Prick News scum printed about these two wastes of perfectly good oxygen

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/24/these-powerful-stories-from-two-trans-ex-offenders-remind-us-why-we-need-to-support-trans-rights-today/

Please don't forget the other charmer with Lord Patel, Jasmie née Darren Goode. Darren was the evil piece of shit who burgled 102 year old women.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hereford/worcs/4998544.stm
www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/965150/defiant-jasmine-its-right-i-had-a-sex-change-op-in-prison/
www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/sex-swap-burglar-jasmine-goode-fathered-2274842

Lord Patel invited only the most depraved stains on humanity to the House of Lords to better inform how to make evil bastards feel comfortable in prison.

Even if he somehow gets a GRC I hope his previous offending will be taken into account and he'll be kept in a male prison no matter what.

Thank you arranfan Yes Karen Jones. FFS.

I am sure there is another who has not been named, making it harder to analyse.

Well yes, it has happened before so only the media attention might force a change of policy. Its all so fucked up.

The was the other male trans prisoner who a judge ruled had to be transferred to the women's estate in order to fulfil their gender clinic's criteria for a GRC, and he thought it was their 'right' to do so. (and never mind the women) Who was that? There are actually so many of these cases and we need to try to get the media to try to pick up on more than this one :(

I can well believe that KW is as genuine trans as they need to be to be considered trans/ a transwoman, and even if there are manipulative aspects, it isn't the same clearcut scenario as a man who pretends to be the gas man to rob old ladies (also despicable).

Garside on now.

SarahJ, thank you for your bravery. I am very sorry that you both had to go through this, and that the current debate and near-worship of TG individuals; Sophie Cook FGS talking about feminism will be triggering.

You will get through it, and emerge stronger.

Would you like me to start a thread in AIBU linking to this?

Because in Ireland they're capable of joined-up thinking?

Just wondering why in Ireland they segregate prisoners by sex regardless of how they ID (despite having self ID laws) whereas here, even though we don’t have self ID, it is seen as a breach of the prisoner’s rights to send them to a prison that correlated with their birth sex?...

Brilliant good man!

Vine also discussing Stephen Wood on R2 after 12.

Helen and her barrister have grasped the wrong end of the stick. What they should be campaigning for is for the Nordic model re. prostitution, which decriminalises the sale of prostitution, while making the purchase (and pimping and brothel keeping) illegal.

The thing that is wrong is that Helen's past crime of "importuning" is being lumped in with serious sexual crimes which involve the violation of another person's consent. Importuning (as I understand it) covered both "chatting another bloke up, no money involved" and "soliciting". The problem is criminalising the first at all, and keeping the second on someone's record for good, not the dead-naming. (Soliciting IMO should remain illegal as a kind of public nuisance offence, but a fairly low-level one.)

James Barrett again...

Successful appeal of pre-operative transgender woman without GRC transfer to Women's Estate, this overturned the Home Office's previous refusal. (2009)

No apparent dicussion or assessment of impact on female prisoners except the following evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, who had also known the Claimant for many years, explained why living in role in female accommodation was required:

"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

I've just been listening to the Tom Swarbrick inteview with Jenny-Anne Bishop, TW and advisor on the national trans advisory board for the prison service, and from what Bishop said last night under the existing rules it would be highly unlikely White would be considered for transfer ever again due to the nature of their criminal history, even if White did transition fully & completely using the "old rules."

I've added a transcript of the interview here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3392082-Tom-Swarbrick-LBC-11pm-last-night-Thursday

I think the point that is sort of glossed over a bit in the interview is that, if GRA reform makes everyone at each point in the system of decision-making thing that self-ID overrides everything else, there is the potential for more mistakes of this type.

aranfan posted on previous thread:

"I've just seen this analysis distributed by Scottish Women:

395 sexual assaults in UK prisons in 2017. I found that only 5% (21) occurred in women's prisons. We know from recent headlines that 4 of those was by...Karen White.
ONE trans prisoner is responsible for 20% of ALL the sex assaults that occurred in women's prisons in 2017!!"

The thread has eye-opening tables and numbers: twitter.com/Scottish_Women/status/1038735274392662016

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3357845-To-think-a-rapist-shouldnt-be-in-a-womens-prision-to-start-with?pg=18

Crime & Justice charity:

"Transgender prisoners – those, mostly men, who assert a gender identity at odds with their birth sex – pose a challenge for prison managers. Prisons, after all, are social institutions grounded in the gender binary: that one is either male or female. Transgender prisoners challenge such a binary.

The current Prison Rules state that male and female prisoners should be kept separate from each other. This is not a British idiosyncrasy.

The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners state that 'Men and women shall so far as possible be detained in separate institutions; in an institution which receives both men and women, the whole of the premises allocated to women shall be entirely separate'.

It does not need spelling out why keeping male and female prisoners in separate accommodation should be one of the minimum expectations for the treatment of prisoners."

www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/transgender-prisoners

from the Sunday Times today, article by Andrew Gilligan:

'Trans offender seeks to wipe crimes as a man from record'
(extract)
A transgender offender is seeking to delete from her record two crimes that could only have been committed by a man.

“I do not wish my gender history to be more widely known and do not wish to disclose my trans status to employers,” the woman, who asked to be identified only as Helen, said. She is to launch a judicial review to remove two convictions for “importuning as a man” when she worked at a Soho “clip joint” in the 1970s and 1980s.

A right to removal, if established, could cover rape, another crime that can legally be committed only by a person with a penis.

Trans people with a gender recognition certificate are legally entitled to keep their birth gender secret.

Helen’s barrister, Claire McCann, said disclosure of offences that revealed Helen’s birth gender in criminal record checks was “severe and discriminatory interference with Helen’s right to respect for her private life”. (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-offender-seeks-to-wipe-crimes-as-aman-from-record-qfk5w68lb?shareToken=2bb5072907deafb68dd42f53a6ab758a