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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Womxn controversy on Newsnight

309 replies

WTFisawomxn · 10/10/2018 22:37

Watching BBC 2 right now.
Looks like it will come up later in the programme.

OP posts:
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NothingOnTellyAgain · 12/10/2018 09:37

Note none of these groups have included "elderly women" in their "types of women" lists EVER that I have seen.

Old women somehow almost literally invisible to most men so it's not surprising.

I mean unless it's their mum and they need some washing done or a home cooked meal or whatever.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 12/10/2018 09:35

I have no idea.

Men are the ones who are most often to be found accusing women that they personally don't want to fuck of being "mannish".

A lot of this is projection.

Also a weird thing whereby things that are relevant to USA are somehow deemed to be universal experience which is bizarre.

OkMaybeNot · 12/10/2018 09:27

They're framing black women as a subcategory of women. We're not the ones doing that. It's them.

Fucking nasty, racist cunts.

FekkoTheLawyer · 12/10/2018 08:29

So when did 'woman' not include - black women/not white women (whatever). I know that it never included men?

I have never heard this - and I used to read a lot of feminist literature way back in my student days (which the kids don't seem to do - they can't name 3 feminists let alone read anything over 280 characters).

Charliethefeminist · 12/10/2018 08:16

I think this whole thing was a set up. We should have let them have womxn for trans XY.

AngryAttackKittens · 12/10/2018 06:28

Perhaps we can use 'womething' as a catch-all term for condescending, erasing or appropriating linguistic bollocks aimed at women.

And then 6 months from now the appropriating bastards will demand to be called womethings too, because they always do. Some of them already want "cis", which they created themselves to other us.

At a certain point you realize that attempting to reason or negotiate with people like that is pointless, and the only option is a hard no. I know not everyone here is at that point yet, but maybe they're at least starting to realize why those of us who've been dealing with this shit for a while are.

CharlieParley · 12/10/2018 04:08

Is it more likely that claiming the word 'women' doesn't include women of colour isn't a racist assumption of SC's, but a deliberate attempt to paint women as racist by claiming that they are the ones excluding women of colour?

This is a regularly used racist trope by gender ideologists - "transwomen are women like black women are women" - often found also with "like lesbian women are women" and "like disabled women are women"

It's never accompanied by a claim that women exclude these groups of women though, but the underlying assumption that they are excluded from normal womanhood by their very nature (presumably this is because most of these males claiming womanhood are white, straight and able-bodied and this then becomes also their default for women).

Having watched Cook's interview several times now, to Cook saying women of colour aren't included in the word women is a completely normal assertion. What I suspect happened here is that this beloved trope goes unchallenged so very often that Cook didn't think twice about saying this because Cook truly believes Cookself to be in the same category as black women.

Now that this ideology is getting dragged into the light of day I suspect many more people will start to wake up. It truly is a toxic ideology - I had a Twitter conversation with a fully paid-up member of the genderati and they made offensive statements on

-race
-homosexuality
-lesbianism
-age
-women
-intersex people
-transsexuals
-scientists

They couldn't argue their points at all because they were almost entirely unsupported by any actual, deep knowledge or understanding of any issues. Maybe they're so used to affirming each other, their arguments just aren't tested?

Anyway, despite having no counter-arguments to my calm, logical, fact-based and properly referenced points, they held onto their deep-seated beliefs all the same. It really does seem to be quasi-religious in nature.

AspieAndProud · 12/10/2018 01:12

The sight of m&s selling hijabs for little schoolgirls online - one review suggests the medium size would fit a year 4 or 4 years old - has just put the cherry on top for me.

First I heard of this was someone retweeting M&S’s response to the question ‘Are they available in men’s sizes?’

They aren’t, the transphobic bastards.

(Amazing how quickly gender becomes binary again when it comes to religion.)

PersonWithAVulva · 12/10/2018 00:33

Your complaint has been submitted

I complained about the unchallenged racism. I am not even black, and I found it grossly offensive. That it was not challenged is disgusting. I bet they just issue a small apology somewhere...if that

I also complained about it being 2 males discussing what women should call themselves. But the racism was the main subject of my complaint. No doubt the racism will be ignored and I will get a 'you are transphobic' email back Hmm

UpstartCrow · 11/10/2018 22:53

Fascism, almost here.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2018 22:52

Oops wrong thread.

RedToothBrush · 11/10/2018 22:52

22 charities gagged with an NDA.

Womxn controversy on Newsnight
Danaquestionseverything · 11/10/2018 22:40

earlymodernparent
Gosh don’t apologise lovely. It was after 2am when I was posting so I was probably a bit befuddled. mwah

FekkoTheLawyer · 11/10/2018 20:35

I'm turning on for the night it's been a ranty day.

The sight of m&s selling hijabs for little schoolgirls online - one review suggests the medium size would fit a year 4 or 4 years old - has just put the cherry on top for me.

FesteringCarbuncle · 11/10/2018 20:32

LizzieSiddal
Thank you for the Twitter link

The picture is a corker isn't it. I didn't think it needed and explanation. It is from SC own Twitter feed

EarlyModernParent · 11/10/2018 20:03

Is it more likely that claiming the word 'women' doesn't include women of colour isn't a racist assumption of SC's, but a deliberate attempt to paint women as racist by claiming that they are the ones excluding women of colour?

I expect that is the motivation, but it is dismissive to the point of being racist to pop up and blithely assert that notion without bothering to ask or include BAME women in the conversation.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 11/10/2018 19:33

Womxn

AthelstaneTheUnready · 11/10/2018 19:33

Is it more likely that claiming the word 'women' doesn't include women of colour isn't a racist assumption of SC's, but a deliberate attempt to paint women as racist by claiming that they are the ones excluding women of colour?

Because anti-racism has fought a long time to get itself heard and felt, so if the TRAs could just piggy back on that, well, then women's opinions won't count because they're just a bunch of racists.

CaptainKirkssparetupee · 11/10/2018 19:32

There is another bunch using women fekko northern something....
I'm not on twitter but someone here will know

FekkoTheLawyer · 11/10/2018 19:29

It's still on Twitter (note to SM person - you can delete tweets). I was about to email them all and ask them to explain why they thought this was a good idea and who suggested it to them. Phew!

I just need to write to the mayor about the evening standard 1000 list (similar questions)...

PersonWithAVulva · 11/10/2018 19:26

Racist racist bullshit this transactivist narrative of transwomen are just like black women!

numptynuts · 11/10/2018 19:25

I complained to the BBC. Along with many others, I hope!

2BorNot2Bvocal · 11/10/2018 19:22

Fekko things have moved on:
"Her Stories responded: “For this year's edition, we chose to use the term 'womxn' in some of our communications around the art auction to reflect our emphasis on inclusivity. As the use of the term has recently created a distraction from the purpose in our work of raising money for these fantastic charities, we are revising our communications to use the term 'women', with confidence that we remain inclusive and focused on our purpose:"
"An H&M spokesperson said: "H&M does not use the term ‘womxn’ in any of our communications."
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/10/womxn-row-companies-worry-word-women-excludes-transgender-people/

FekkoTheLawyer · 11/10/2018 19:15

Awwwww bugger it. I should not look at twitter after 6pm...

Womxn controversy on Newsnight
FekkoTheLawyer · 11/10/2018 18:41

Maybe tomorrow when she has calmed down a little.

It's been a rough day and I suspect her other half is currently gently stroking her hair and whispering whale sounds in her warm - or scraping her off the ceiling.