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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A few thoughts on the difference between ‘feelings’ and ‘beliefs’...

39 replies

Destinysdaughter · 09/10/2018 19:19

The difference between feelings and beliefs. The English language is a funny thing and sometimes things don’t mean what we think they mean. So I’d like to talk a bit about this, apologies if this seems really obvious.

Firstly, ‘feeling’ actually has 2 meanings. The first one is how things actually feel, physically or emotionally. These things are real. Velvet feels soft, Stone feels hard etc. It also describes emotional feelings, things we feel viscerally in our body. So, things like anger, sadness, fear, hurt. We feel those things, right?

However, ‘ feel’ also has another meaning and this is where it becomes problematic. For example, if you said, ‘ I felt stupid’, does this describe a physical feeling in your body, or a belief? You may have felt embarrassed, fear, shame etc but ‘ stupid’ is NOT a physical feeling. What you actually meant is, you BELIEVED you were stupid. And beliefs can be challenged. Whereas feelings can’t.

And this is the crux of it: the conflagration of emotions with beliefs. How can you argue with someone who says they ‘ feel’ like a woman? You can’t. But what they are really saying is that they BELIEVE they are a woman. And THIS can be challenged. However, just as with religion, it’s about faith. ( which, again, you can’t argue with)

I wish we could use really clear, precise language with this issue. Men don’t ‘feel’ like they are a woman, they ‘believe’ they are. And beliefs can be verified by objective truth. Of course, this is why TRAs want #nodebate as their belief system, as if it was held up to any kind of objective scrutiny, it would crumble.

Sorry if this all seems bloody obvious but I’ve wanted to talk about this for a while as it’s more dishonest obfuscation of language. And needs debating.

#transvestites are not women.

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bluetitsaretits · 10/10/2018 00:20

Great post seafret , you hit the nail on the head.
There is so little real help for mental health issues. Couple that with the increase in social pressure to conform to unrealistic expectations and an increasing sense of general 'threat' in the world (environmental problems, the economy, terrorism etc) it's no wonder young people particularly are turning to dissociation.
I think it doesn't help that the media and advertisers know that emotional content has more impact- from touchy feely adverts to over dramatic 'reality' TV. Young people model their behaviour on what they see there. It's so immersive now that I think it has more influence than their real life relationships.

seafret · 09/10/2018 23:19

I agree that this is so important. We have gone from feelings being extremely and often cruelly irrelevant, to feelings being God (unless you need to claim any money of course then your feelings and reality don't count for shit). (Apols if I wander here I cannot sleep and have had some painkillers!)

We need be able to rationally look at the causes of extreme emotions and feelings and the beliefs that flash through the brain in an instant or in a more conscious way and use this analysis to work out how to help.

An irrational fear of doorhandles has no rational basis for believing/ perceiving them to be a severe threat, yet somewhere there will be a thought, a fear, a belief that underpins this extreme reaction. We can sympathise/empathise with the feelings and levels distress it causes but that does not mean we agree/collude with the underlying belief that door handles are 100% a terrible mortal danger, if we did no one would get better. People need help to let go of irrational beliefs and proportionately identify and live with risk/ feelings.

Our body feedback systems can be unhelpful sometimes in reinforcing that the extent of the feelings is proportionate with the level of risk/ threat in the hear and now, and sometimes we cannot believe what our extreme emotions are telling us, but rational objective reality is what helps ground us and help us find sanity.

But when we are considering people who have suffered trauma, and/or who have serious MH conditions, we have to be very careful and nuanced. Not at all how CBT etc is usually dished out on the NHS as a panacea, and as if it doesn't work then you are not trying hard enough, and not being positive enough.

I have PTSD so know something of the processes one feels, the challenges and what it may take to try to get better. It is not easy when some serious threats remain in life, that stir the deepest most existential feelings of fear and terror that some incidents awaken.

That many women have to live with perpetual threats (anything from money and housing worries to sexism, unwanted attention, harrassment, domestic abuse both psychological and physical, threat to our legal rights etc) often on top of childhood traumas and/or sexual assault traumas means that we live with very high rates of stress/distress which is not given credit as being a rational and logical response to circumstances, but rather is seen as irrational = have some pills and CBT and just be positive.

Some people seem to have bypassed this level of living in reality altogether.

I wonder, if some of this PoMo 'everything is a construct' groundswell of ideology is some people experiencing depersonalisation/ derealisation/ existential dissociation/ dissociation in the context of MH conditions that feature emotional dysregulation many of whom are undiagnosed and/ or under treated. Or unquestioningly affirmed. (PoMo is new to me in terms of having significance, so am only just realising that to some people it is a 'thing'!)

This is perhaps where the narcissistic/ annihilist/ perceived threat to trans people's existence comes from. Deep inside they believe/ fear that they are not real, that we will not see them or that they are fundamentally unlovable, before any signs of malignant behaviour really come about) That their deepest person/self/ identity has become disconnected and lost to them an in its place a false/ superficial/ constructed self exists. I should put the terminology in but just haven't the brain power!!

And sadly rather than being able to find grounding in reality, facts, rationality, safe attachments, meaningful occupation, etc, they have been drawn further into this world of disconnection and meaningless meanings (helped culturally maybe by films like the matrix, and being online etc). I just watched the BBC physics video of some weird bloke being up his own arse, and one of the comments was that he has so many identity possibilities that he has (and admits to maybe having) actually no identity at all.

In some ways he is actually kinda average seeming, and is freewheeling as many of us do/have but not in a good way, and seems to have the I neeeeeeeeeeeeeed to be special, looook t meeee and see meeeeee nooooooowwww disorder, and he appears to have a better grip than many we see nowadays.

We live in a world that is Potemkin-like, where media, social and propaganda and cheap goods (although less of these nowadays) does not reflect many people's real life experiences or sustainable expectations. We try to be/ are told to be/ naturally are aspirational beyond basic grounded experiences but the reality is that many will never truly reach what they aspire to be or have the degree of agency that we are told that we must have and should have.

And needs as basic as housing and some sustainable security have nothing to do with this modern superficial aspiration, and will never be achievable for millions of people now, unless something very big changes.

There was an article linked to on another thread that discusses the problems with women being represented well on TV in that it is good because it helps women and girls to challenge sexism but it also implies that the reality of equality has been achieved rather than being something we still have to aspire to We seem to be so challenged these days with what is expected and desired vs what by your late twenties/ thirties is actually possible.

Anyway I will stop now. I have only the feelings of confusion and wonderment (and tiredness) at the mess we are in.

I expect I will read this back another day and have the crushing feeling and belief that I am totally stupid and b really embarrassed!!! But there you go. My need to wonder and think and discuss is in this modern world where I am suck indoors, forever captured on the internet rather than in a classroom, religious place or pub where it maybe quite rightly forgotten.

I love reading everyone's posts on here.

Serfisafleur · 09/10/2018 22:34

The problem with this generation is that the word "feel" doesn't even get a look in, in spoken language, it's replaced by a state of being.
Eg it's not "I feel as though I am trapped in the wrong body" it's
"I AM trapped in the wrong body" and it's not "I feel offended" it's "I AM offended"

Feelings being replaced with indisputable fact.
"You are committing actual violence" not "I feel hurt"...

They've lost all sense of reason.

bluetitsaretits · 09/10/2018 21:18

I suppose another person's beliefs don't really affect us much unless they treat people differently because of them or insist we share them.
The need for beliefs and feelings to be validated by others is a problem.
I think it has always been normal for young people to want external validation, but it wasn't always unquestioningly given before.

Destinysdaughter · 09/10/2018 21:17

This is so difficult to articulate because the word ' feeling' now means something that it really doesn't. I feel cold, I feel sad, I feel angry. These are real, identifiable things. To say I feel stupid, really means, I think I did something I wish I hadn't and I feel embarrassed. It's a belief, that might not even be true. ' I feel you were an idiot', simply means I think/believe you were an idiot. It's a value judgement, it's subjective, and again, can be challenged. There's power in language and we have to be really precise with our language to combat this, as they're trying to muddy the terminology so much that we won't be able to argue up from down soon...

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Annandale · 09/10/2018 21:08

I think this is a very interesting approach.

Perhaps we also need further exploration sbout what infividuals believe when there is no controversy. I am a woman but i also believe i am a woman. Why? There are few people who believe differently from me on this, though i tend to get referred to as mr annandale by people on the phone. My belief does not affect their experience of me but their belief does not change or damage me either.

Turph · 09/10/2018 21:02

The mojority of people I know under 25 are so quick to permit their emotions to escalate that they are downright irrational, I would even say hysterical in sone cases. I blame the way my generation was raised. The whole anti bullying thing went too far.
I think young people have always been more hot headed but the difference now is that feelings are seen as "valid" instead of "irrelevant". Policies and rules and laws and governments are changed because of feelings.
This is why America is in meltdown over Trump. People feel sad and angry and scared and it doesn't matter in the slightest because their feelings are irrelevant, he won the election. Many are having a hard time coping with this and most of the anti-Trump comments from young people are about how they perceive him as a person, and how unfair it is to them that someone who isn't nice gets to be in charge.

Racecardriver · 09/10/2018 20:57

@bluetitsaretits yy. The mojority of people I know under 25 are so quick to permit their emotions to escalate that they are downright irrational, I would even say hysterical in sone cases. I blame the way my generation was raised. The whole anti bullying thing went too far.

Racecardriver · 09/10/2018 20:55

Feeling stupid isn't the same as believing you are stupid though is it? There is a very subtle difference. Believing is that you are stupid is a form of poor selfesteem or an acknowledgement of fact as the case may be. Feeling stupid is actually more of a mix of emotions isn't it?

Turph · 09/10/2018 19:57

How can you argue with someone who says they ‘ feel’ like a woman?
I believe that men are more taken in by the "woman trapped in a man's body" trope because they in turn believe there is no way other people on earth (women) can have a fundamentally different experience on earth to them. The idea that men can do anything is an old one, and they truly believe they can do "woman" as well as any boring ole actual woman.
So someone saying they feel like a woman speaks to men, who nod along and think "how awful!" Men-centred women nod along in agreement despite not being able to put their finger on what "feeling like a woman" is for them, and having never considered "woman" as a feeling previously.
Being pragmatic sorts, we point out that this is nonsense but in doing so we're cruel because as you say, instead of challenging beliefs we've hurt feelings...Confused

bluetitsaretits · 09/10/2018 19:54

Society does seem to give feelings more importance than it used to -not necessarily a bad thing, but we seem to have lost the balance. Sometimes there are occasions when feelings have to be put aside for the 'greater good' and many people seem to have forgotten how to do that.
There are times when a 'stiff upper lip' will get you through a situation where you might otherwise crumble.
Perhaps that's why a lot of young people I've worked with have very poor coping skills and find it hard to handle setbacks.

Destinysdaughter · 09/10/2018 19:47

Exactly. Which is why it’s so important to separate the two. You can’t challenge feelings but you can challenge beliefs...

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bluetitsaretits · 09/10/2018 19:47

Good points there -feelings can't really be challenged but beliefs can.
The strange thing is, sometimes it's possible to 'feel' something but also know rationally that it's not true - eg feeling guilty over something that you know wasn't your fault.
Maybe the issue is what you give the most importance to -the emotional feeling or the contradicting rational answer.

Bowlofbabelfish · 09/10/2018 19:37

Oddly enough this is something I’ve thought about as well, albeit in a very different context. Without going into too much detail but basically in therapy - attempting to fix an emotions problem with a logical approach is doomed to failure.

I agree with you on this context and I think it’s couched quite deliberately. Because you can challenge a belief but not a feeling.

So if Sam says they feel offended, then we have no way of challenging that. If Sam believes something is offensive, then we have they start point of being able to ask why. And from there we can challenge.

It’s also used in non apologies isn’t it?

I’m sorry if you feel that’s offensive
Vs
I’m sorry we offended you.

The first is not an apology.,

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