A few thoughts on the difference between ‘feelings’ and ‘beliefs’...

Agreed. People have the right to believe whatever they like, but should not have the right to impose those beliefs on others. If Catholics can't insist that I not use contraception, then why should genderists be allowed to insist that I submit to a smear test done by a man if he believes himself to be a woman?

Why are some feelings more inportant than others? Feeling like a woman is more important than womens feelings when this confused man enters our space.

Great thread. Am going to come back when I can write properly nuanced thoughts

In a way, I think what I am saying is, by emphasising being 'trans' the people that have transitioned score an own goal - they are declaring themselves as something different from people who are totally comfortable with their natal sex. That very same sex that the trans person wants to present themselves in society as.

The very term 'trans' draws attention a 'change' which indicates a certain amount of uncertainty. If there were less emphasis on being 'trans', and all that this involves, then I am sure a lot more trans people would simply go unnoticed, the cosmetic industry and surgery being what it is today.

I think if someone truly and firmly believes or feels something, if it is actually their permanent reality, they don't need to question it or even consciously have to acknowledge it to people and themselves or discuss it. They just are.

It is obvious.

It is when things are uncertain so much thought and discussion occurs. Or when there is potential for something to change.

There are some very insightful posts on this thread. My thanks to the posters who made them.

There does have to be this distinction though. A conclusion to this debate that allows us the freedom in law to not believe in the magic of sex-change but obliges us to at all times act and speak as if we do would not be a reasonable outcome.

People do not have the same level of freedom if they hold a sincere belief in the inferiority of black people, jews, homosexuals or women.

They have a right to believe it. The law (and hopefully society too) compels them not to act on it where action could harm or disadvantage

A secular society should allow freedom of belief. It should also make it clear that a set of laws govern that society and no belief is allowed to disadvantage another. Everyone is subject to the law.

Also worth saying that tye person holding the belief is protected. the belief system itself remains unprotected.

I cannot abuse someone for holding a religion. I can criticise the ideology itself. I cannot be compelled to believe it.

Religion is a surprisingly good analogy. Which in itself shows you something...

This is very distinct from attempts to use freedom of belief to justify racism, homophobia and sexism. People do not have the same level of freedom if they hold a sincere belief in the inferiority of black people, jews, homosexuals or women.
Sorry, I disagree. I might not like those beliefs but we can't stop people from having them.
Everyone is obliged to treat everyone as equal in all circumstances whatever their personal belief.
This is the point for me. I don't care if the person I'm interacting with thinks I'm going to hell for being a homosexual, for example, provided they treat me as they would anyone else.

Typically, they are resistant to logic being applied, this is what makes the condition a condition.

One of my concerns is that there is a ready made, off the shelf, very broad trans narrative now available that people who are experiencing certain feelings can latch on to in order to 'make sense of' those feelings by attributing them to a widespread narrative.

I think the Tavistock are good at helping young people work through this, which is why so many patients desist.
This is the issue in a nutshell. The Tavistock has the muscle to be able to work with people without being accused of transphobia, but we still have quacks like Webberley, a cult-like adherence to trans ideology online, and affirmational pressure groups like Gendered Intelligence or Mermaids fighting against the very concept of discussion.
Those parties seem to want to reduce the number of desisters rather than ensure the best outcome for each individual. That is very worrying.

Trans people should absolutely be free to believe what their like about themselves so long as the rest of us are accorded the same freedom. The whole sorry mess is because badly worded legislation and guidelines that failed to recognise that this is an issue of belief has led to a situation where a certain minority is being allowed to impose their personal beleifs on society at large, to the point of criminalising expression of disbelief. Thus destroying freedom of belief.
Spot on. It's particularly relevant because it affects other people, as you say, whereas belief in transubstantiation does not.

@Bowlofbabelfish - ah I see your point now. What needs to be challenged is young people being indoctrinated into the trans faith position. Children being taught that they can choose for themselves whether to grow up to be a man or a woman is disingenuous. Children should be taught that this is something that some people believe, and taught to respect such beliefs, in much the same way as they are taught to understand and respect that some people believe specific things about Jesus, Muhammad or Buddha.

Exactly.

An important distinction is to make it very clear that we don't believe trans people to be "lesser"/"inferior"/"less valid" - they are fully human and each human can be beautiful and whole in themselves, living out their identity as works for them.

This is very distinct from attempts to use freedom of belief to justify racism, homophobia and sexism. People do not have the same level of freedom if they hold a sincere belief in the inferiority of black people, jews, homosexuals or women. Everyone is obliged to treat everyone as equal in all circumstances whatever their personal belief.

We are not fighting to categorise transwomen as "lesser women" and transmen as "lesser men" - that would indeed be abhorrent and transphobic.

My belief is that all humans are created equal, and that the only differences between men and women are in biological structure, chromosomes and biochemistry. There is no aspect of presentation, dress, style, career choice or personality that is inherently "male" or "female". Such differences as there are can be entirely ascribed to socialisation and culture. It therefore follows that any individual can make their personal choices of dress and style and tastes and career and express their personality as they choose.

I call this belief "feminism". I acknowledge that not everyone believes this but I have the right to believe it.

Some people have been so damaged by sexist socialisation and culture telling them from an early age that their personality and tastes are wrong because they clash with the outward shape of their body. That can lead to dysphoria. The sexism in society is to blame for this and must be challenged and changed. Some of the most affected sufferers of this unhappy situation will find some relief if they arrange for some sex-specific organs to be cut off and artificial mimics of the opposite sex organs grafted on. Such people should be afforded sympathy, understanding and respect. However, none of this fundamentally changes their sex.

I strongly disagree that therefore beliefs can or should be challenged/disproved.

kikul yes I agree. When I say it can be challenged I’m meaning in specific contexts. Namely in children, and when the narrative is being forced on wider society. An adult can believe what they want - as you say it’s when that belief has wider consequences we have an issue

kixul excellent point. Lisa Muggeridge made the point (in a video about the trans agenda in schools, I believe) that this 'woman in a man's body' idea is a construct, a crutch for adult transpeople to alleviate their real suffering. So, 'converting' them in debate seems problematic. (Therapy is another matter, but even there, most psychologists, even GC ones, will acknowledge that living as the other gender and even full SRS may be the best path for some. I imagine that often implies not throwing away the 'crutch.)
But just like Muslims and Catholics need to understand that their belief can't mean society has to refashion itself according to Sharia or the Pope's prescriptions, transpeople need to understand that their belief is not an absolute we all now must adhere to.

Great post Kixul

I agree with your premise but not your conclusion. Yes you are quite right in your distinction between feelings and beliefs, and it is quite correct that in the context of tris issues, it is beliefs we are dealing with not feelings.

I strongly disagree that therefore beliefs can or should be challenged/disproved. We have freedom of belief. Trans people should absolutely be free to believe what their like about themselves so long as the rest of us are accorded the same freedom. The whole sorry mess is because badly worded legislation and guidelines that failed to recognise that this is an issue of belief has led to a situation where a certain minority is being allowed to impose their personal beleifs on society at large, to the point of criminalising expression of disbelief. Thus destroying freedom of belief.

I believe in the strength of a pluralist society where all kinds of belief are accepted and respected. There must be a way to accommodate the faith of people who believe they can magically change sex, according them the same respect as other faiths not our own, without having to "convert" our own faith.

It would be very helpful to reframe the language of our discussions to talk in terms of faith and belief, acknowledging everyone's right to their beliefs and asserting firmly the need to protect the right to believe differently.

There needs to be some proper thought for how to do this, including being very clear whenever there are distinctions made between male and female facilities or opportunities that in some cases the divisions are about personality and taste and self-identified trans people can be accommodated, and others where it's solely about biological fact and one's personal faith position about your gender is irrelevant.

Likewise as beliefs are respected it should be fine for women who believe in biology to assemble and organise and fund facilities which are run according to the faith position that science is real, without being denounced as witches and infidels.

The idea that men can do anything is an old one, and they truly believe they can do "woman" as well as any boring ole actual woman.

How many times have we heard the phrase "the child inside the man" "the man child" ?

This idea of 'the inner child' seems to be related to men as opposed to women.

It's used as an excuse for certian behaviour. "Oh Peter's still a child at heart. That's why he can't settle down. That's why he's had a mid-life crisis/ran off with the 20 year old nanny/decided to cross dress..."

It is pushed from an early age that men can behave in a certain way because they are Peter/Petra Pan.

They believe it and we are told to accept that this is how some men are.

When do you hear about women's inner child? The woman still being a girl and that's why she's left her husband and kids? It seldom happens because we are conditioned to be responsible, to become mothers, to grow up, from a young age. From that first Tiny Tears.

It goes back to gender sterotypes again. This is why this movement is so regressive - it re enforces those stereotypes. It's about men's desires again.

People with dysphoria, and those working with them, recognise that the presenting issues relate to distress caused by a person feeling/ experiencing disgust, hatred, fear etc in relation to their sexed body. The corresponding thoughts/beliefs are that this can't be the body they were meant to have/something went wrong in their development etc. Typically, they are resistant to logic being applied, this is what makes the condition a condition. I think both feelings and thoughts/beliefs are significant.
In my experience with dysphoric people, the feelings precede the thoughts, the thoughts come as a result of humans being meaning makers and storying their lives in order to make sense of them.
One of my concerns is that there is a ready made, off the shelf, very broad trans narrative now available that people who are experiencing certain feelings can latch on to in order to 'make sense of' those feelings by attributing them to a widespread narrative.
For what it's worth, I do think dysphoria can exist independently from other issues, but increasingly, young people presenting as trans are attributing unwanted feelings to a trans narrative, which is disguising the real presenting issues. I think the Tavistock are good at helping young people work through this, which is why so many patients desist.

. The mojority of people I know under 25 are so quick to permit their emotions to escalate that they are downright irrational, I would even say hysterical in sone cases. I blame the way my generation was raised. The whole anti bullying thing went too far.

Was thinking this last night, I remember doing circle times with y3 kids around 17-15 years ago but it got a bit out of hand (I was inexperienced!) as over course if a few weeks they all got increasingly offended by each other and their feelings were hurt and the amount of daily tears escalated. I can't remember how but I had to change tact and be a lot stricter, recognising what to take seriously and what to not pander to, teach them resilience and ignoring skills while dealing with the actual bullies (not really any tbh). Unfortunately I think a lot of them were very mixed up and it was the first time they'd been allowed to open up but it definitely went too far.

I agree with OP in principle, but I believe the issue is complicated by what drives the ‚belief of being a woman trapped in a man‘s body (or vice versa)‘. And that is rather a feeling, or an urge, to shed your skin in regards to dysphoria, and in the case of autogynephilia, also, an urge to have a female body and/or to be perceived as female. I think, these are really visceral feelings the respective person has no control over. And that is what they describe as ‚feeling like a woman‘.
Of course, women know that a visceral desire of having your period for the period‘s sake or an overwhelming urge of putting on high heels is not ‚what it feels like‘ to be a woman.

I wonder, if some of this PoMo 'everything is a construct' groundswell of ideology is some people experiencing depersonalisation/ derealisation/ existential dissociation/ dissociation in the context of MH conditions that feature emotional dysregulation many of whom are undiagnosed and/ or under treated.

There is definitely research indicating that narcissistic tendencies are increasing in frequency and I’ve seen work which theorises that the internet allows and encourages such a concept because of the ability to construct and inhabit different personas.

Things like twitter also encourage it. People creating pile ons for example and mobbing women- they create a climate that only allows certain terminology to be used. In effect it creates a new reality.

I do think there’s a possibility this is one way of expressing trauma but it’s also a way to express aggression.

seafret, excellent post, thank you