Is non binary about gender roles not sex?

Did anyone see the absolutely moronic interview with Jill Soloway (writer and director of Transparent) in the Graun on the weekend?

www.theguardian.com/global/2018/oct/07/jill-soloway-my-father-told-me-he-was-trans-and-it-changed-my-life-

'They' are now identifying as non-binary. Apparently they weren't capable of booking a table at a restaurant when identifying as a woman; it also helps them stay relevant to the kidz Except they admit that this identity is probably temporary and non-binary is a fad.

Apart from thinking this person is an utter fool, it did make me feel quite hopeful that even people in thrall to this shit see that it won't last, so we will hopefully move on sooner rather than later. Of course not before there is untold harm done to women and children.

What does “[X group] are valid” even mean? Yes of course people are ‘valid’ in the sense that they have a right to exist as they choose and believe what they wish to. But that’s not the same as expecting others to agree with them surely?

“People who vote Conservative” and “people who are young-earth creationists” and “people who think Voyager was the best Star Trek series” are all ‘valid and real’, too, but I still think they’re wrong. (Fortunately since they’re not Tinkerbell, me saying this does not make them stop existing.)

Do non binary people claim that its a type of dysphoria that they can't help, or do they freely admit its just a lifestyle choice. Do they claim the mental health and suicide risk that trans people claim?

Like if I said she instead of they would it be litrial violence.

It seems to me that if you a masculine female or visa versa, like Lea DeLaria or Boy George, you don't count as non binary. I'm not sure whether that is because they are too old or because you have to be a mash up of male and female, not just gender non conforming.

I can't see how it's a real thing tbh. It's just gender non conforming people wanting a special label. Everyone wants a special little label now. Apart from those that have real labels that they can't get away from, that make people treat them as different and lesser.

I don't think anyone is saying nonbinary people are fictional, they are real and exist, they just assume everyone else has the same rigid box placing view of gender that they subscribe to. Being nonbinary is normal. You don't need a medal or a special pronoun for not being a feminine woman who loves doing her nails and wearing lots of make up and wearing floaty dresses every day. Some women are in to that stuff, lots aren't. The people who aren't are still real and are still women. You don't need to make a drama out of it though. You can be real and valid without needing your own special box to distance yourself from the women who like feminine stuff.

Yes, that was pretty much my reaction @WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe. Formal GC education is about to begin, I think! And more time in the woods away from daft four year olds!

I belong to the gender of “people who recognise that ‘gender’ is about how societies and cultures operate, not an internal and individual property we can’t apply any kind of group analysis to, because humans and sexism and oppression exist as part of a wider society and not floating around in some pure individualistic ether where oppression mainly relates to pronouns.”

I agree with this

Non-binary people are valid and real, and have the same rights to recognition and inclusion as everybody else

Given that many (most?) people on this thread have identified as non-binary, I'd say the good Dr H is preaching to the converted. How very dare he.

It's quite a dense read but Dr Jane Clare Jones' piece is worth a look: A note on 'smashing the binary'

What I want to do here then is think through what ‘smashing the binary’ would or should mean in its original context, and to lay out the fundamental conceptual mistake in how it’s being thought in trans ideology. My claim – surprise! – is that this conceptual mistake is so dramatic that when trans ideologues and their allies wheel out some vague-ish claim that they’re leading us to liberation by ‘undoing’ or ‘challenging’ binaries, they are, in fact, repeating exactly the problem that the original critique of ‘binaries and why they are bad’ was trying to address. What this comes down to is that people don’t understand the distinction between ‘a binary’ and ‘a difference.’

janeclarejones.com/2018/10/01/a-note-on-smashing-the-binary/

Oh, what a coincidence!

I can see how it happens though, I mean my GP also spends her whole day reading MN and Tweeting and never doing any actual doctoring.

Posted without comment:

twitter.com/DrAdrianHarrop/status/1049677108136546305?s=19

Attempting to deliberately invalidate, delegitimise, and indeed, make fun of non-binary gender identities is manifestly transphobic.

Non-binary people are valid and real, and have the same rights to recognition and inclusion as everybody else.

#nonbinary #trans #LGBTQ 🌈

Agree it's nonsense and just means you hate the sexual stereotypes. It has nothing to do with your sexuality as it doesn't mean you're bisexual. I think it's used by immature attention seeking people who don't realise most people, especially women don't conform to the stereotypes and that's OK, you don't need a special box and pronoun to be nonconforming.

I know two women in their thirties who identify as non-binary. One wears hippy colorful style clothes and has multicolored hair and the other wears jeans/t-shirt/hoody and doc Martin style combos, oh and has blue hair.

I’m staring to wonder if NB’s is code for part Troll, what with all the snazzy hair and that.

Both women are in relationships with men and have children so heterosexual women, but on a serious note, neither of them do, or probably would ever conform to societal “beauty standards” and I do wonder if the NB label is a way of opting out of the ubiquitous pressure of having to perform femininity. As a fat person myself, I have some sympathy with women who just would rather not have the “standard” applied to them than spend their whole life striving for the unobtainable however as a feminist I want to see the “standard” eradicated for everybody rather some nonsense, reality bending ideology of non-sexed people (which doesn’t work anyway because everybody still know they are female and society will treat them accordingly regardless of blue hair and feet stamping whilst screaming I’MNOTI’MNOTI’MNOT!).

Laundry that's awful. When my DD was little and came out with nonsense like that I just laughed (gently) and said ' "How silly that person was to say that". Then I introduced her to as many strong female characters in books as I could find. Time to read Pipi Longstocking to your DD?

I think it's much shallower than gender roles and is the consequence of a generation who have fallen hook, line, and sinker for the notion that boy = blue, pink = girl. Thanks largely to marketeers now everything is gendered: pink vs blue lego, etc. They've been brainwashed to think this way and that why they can't see beyond it. It's tragic and so limiting. Kids feel so constrained by it that they feel the need to identify out of it. Then there's all the porn-related pressure to perform. Just look at the cast of Hollyoaks, which I assume many teenagers and preteens watch, and it's like they're squeezing them from tubes: one from the boy tube, another from the girl tube. I think I saw only one female with short hair on there. All the rest look like a very heavily made up version of Barbie. And this gendered rubbish is starting way before that. CBeebies is riddled with gendered assumptions. I know this because my child who doesn't watch TV chucks a paddy when I try to put her in trousers (suitable clothing for playing in the woods) because another four year old she plays with (who I know watches a fuck tonne of TV) has told her they're boy clothes! When TV is presenting kids with such 2 dimensional characters from such a young age it's no wonder they're confused!

Slightly OT but the jeans thing only happened yesterday and I'm still fuming about it!

Aornis I think you might be onto something there. If we oldies all start describing ourselves as NB, because we are when you consider Bonerwall's definition, it will instantly lose it's appeal as a hip identity. Genius!

All of this is very dangerous ground to bring up with my teen dd, but I actually might suggest to her that I'm non binary and see what she says. I suspect she'll be annoyed and dismissive, and the only reason that she won't accept it is because I'm too old to fit into her narrow perception of what a non-binary (brave and stunning blue-haired person) looks like.

There is an ageist streak a mile wide in this ideology, as well as a logic vortex.

You don't get beaten up, or murdered, or treated differently at work because you're non-binary. A landlord won't discriminate you, or a shop refused to serve you because you're non-binary. So what is the justification for allowing NBs to think they can sneak into 'protected characterisitcs' status?

Non-Binary people ask for 'acceptance' in the same way that a vegetarian asks her family to accept her beliefs/tastes and adapt the dishes and choices accordingly.

But NBs don't just want acceptance (as if anyone cares!) , they demand 'privileges' and 'concessions' and bollox around pronouns and mixed sex toilets.

On yer bike, NBs. It's not a thing. It is laughable that the parliamentary committee on Women (yeah right) and Equality actually considers NBs in the reform of the GRA. In fact, it's shocking.

Whenever you see 'non-binary', use the substitute 'vegetarian' just to remind yourself how ridiculous they sound.

Non-binary non-shminary! Gender non-conformity has been around for ever, nothing new or special about it. I think a lot of people play around with this when they are young, it's good as it's part of forming your identity and questioning gender norms. But it ain't new.

I wrote a lot about this in my GRA consultation. Especially asking how it could be possible to legislate for those who describe themselves as gender-fluid who, by definition, have an inconsistent sense of gender identity. I mean how could you legislate for it?

Non binary = trying to hard to be interesting.

There's a very... helpful page about it here. Very useful for all those of us who are just realising that we are non binary and maybe thinking about coming out to our families. transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive

The good news is that "It isn’t as hard as you might think to be supportive and respectful of non-binary people, even if you have just started to learn about them."

I believe in the abolition of gender as I believe in the abolition of slavery. What is this desperation to belong to a tribe? It devalues the rich complexity of identity and personal moral choices, making it into the most superficial conformist nonsense I've ever seen. It would just be ridiculous if not so terrifying. If 'woman' is divorced from sex I suppose I'm going to have to be non binary.

WatchThePotatoesBoil

That is a great read. Thank you for sharing. I am now busily emailing it to everybody I know.

“An umbrella term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’“

Teenager with wacky hair?

I think the people who describe themselves as non binary are different than those who reject stereotypes. If I look at the university students who say they are non binary, they are making it a statement, they are combining things very stereo typically feminine with things stereo typically masculine. So the men have small, child size pink sparkly T shirts over a male body. A male face with one pink bit of curly hair etc.but no make up to complete the look. The women, I suspect are breast binding or cutting their hair. It's the non binary males I've seen more of though. They don't just wear normal, unisex jeans and a hoody - it's about making a statement.

So they probably think they are expressing their female personality with the mini skirt and the male with their boots, for example, instead of just doing things that aren't gender specific. So, I don't advertise my female-ness or need to, but if I felt 20% male or whatever and believed it was important to express the fact, I might have to have a crew cut.

I think it is nonsense, don't get me wrong, but I do think they do see it differently to us. I also think I might have bought into it a bit as a teen.

Stonewall’s definition of non-binary is “An umbrella term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’“. Which is not massively clearing it up for me to be honest. Unless the non-binary people assume that everyone else is 100% happy with what society says men and women should do, and it’s only the few special people who have an issue with it?

I belong to the gender of “people who recognise that ‘gender’ is about how societies and cultures operate, not an internal and individual property we can’t apply any kind of group analysis to, because humans and sexism and oppression exist as part of a wider society and not floating around in some pure individualistic ether where oppression mainly relates to pronouns.”