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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Girl Guiding email to parents regarding Trans

58 replies

WhiskyIrnBru · 08/10/2018 09:41

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this? I don't feel like it addresses concerns parents have raised?

Important update



A message to all our members, parents and carers

Our response to the media attention to our Equality and Diversity policy

In the last few days you may have seen that Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy has been criticised in the media, with accusations that our inclusion of trans members puts girls at risk. It does not.

The safety, wellbeing and happiness of our members is at the heart of everything we do in Girlguiding and has been for over 100 years.

We are therefore writing to all our members and parents of our young members to set the record straight. Keeping girls, young women and our adult volunteers safe is our number one priority. We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone and underpin everything volunteers and girls do in guiding. We are deeply saddened that anyone would suggest that we would knowingly put our young members at risk.

As an organisation we pride ourselves on caring for every individual. Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Every individual and group is different, so we train and support our volunteers to assess every situation - balancing the needs of all our members, both girls and adults, so everyone can enjoy their guiding experience in a way they feel comfortable with. Our universal policies ensure that all volunteers are required to safeguard and assess risk for all activities on a case by case basis to comply with those policies and procedures.

We’ve been responding directly to practical questions from volunteers and parents about how we can balance the needs of all our members, and we are always happy to offer bespoke support to any leader or parent, including on transgender inclusion.

It is important to us that we listen to girls and young women, 86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Girlguiding’s policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct ensure that all our volunteers understand their roles and responsibilities to treat others with respect, keep everyone safe, and deliver great experiences for girls and young women.

We therefore take breaches of our policies, procedures and Volunteer Code of Conduct very seriously.

Following a number of complaints about two individuals, an independent investigation concluded that both had breached our Volunteer Code of Conduct and our Social Media policy because they did not, and indicated that they were not willing to, follow Girlguiding’s Equality and Diversity policy and actively encouraged others to do the same. We are always willing to listen to feedback about our policies, and remain open to reviewing them wherever necessary.

We will always investigate any breaches of our Volunteer Code of Conduct and related policies. While withdrawal of membership is a last resort for us, our policies are designed to protect our girls and young women. Refusing to comply with our policies is unacceptable. Unfortunately, the circumstances meant that we had no choice but to withdraw these individuals’ membership. This decision was not based on their personal views, but on the way they conducted themselves.

We have been asked to provide further details on these specific disciplinary cases but it would be inappropriate to comment further as the individuals in question have a right to appeal.

We’ve tried to avoid being drawn into the highly politicised, emotive and often aggressive debate around transgender inclusion. Girlguiding is not a transgender campaign group, we are a young people’s organisation. Our focus has been, and will remain, providing our young members with opportunities to learn, grow and discover in a fun, safe, inclusive and legally compliant way.

We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups.

We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance. Under the General Data Protection Regulation 2018 the sharing of personal data of children is afforded greater protection, so we take great care to uphold confidentiality. Any information about an individual’s transgender history is treated in line with the Data Protection Act 2018/General Data Protection Regulation 2018 (GDPR) and Girlguiding’s Data Protection policy.

It hasn’t been easy to hear criticism of our organisation and of the wider Girlguiding family especially when much of it is inaccurate, aggressive and counter to the values we hold dear.

We are incredibly proud of our volunteers and the young people in our movement who sensitively and positively support diversity of all kinds, including our transgender members, as part of their groups. We would like to thank each and every one of our 109,000 volunteers who, week in and week out, offer a safe space for girls and young women to have fun, learn new skills, explore their own identity and beliefs, and to be proud of who they are.

Amidst all the noise we try to remain focused on the children and young people that we support. We call ourselves a movement because we change with the times, whilst staying focused on our core values and purpose, and we will continue to do just that.

Amanda Medler

Chief Guide

Ruth Marvel

Acting chief executive

© Copyright Girlguiding 2018. All Rights Reserved. Registered Company Address: 17-19 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W 0PT.

OP posts:
SwiftNC · 08/10/2018 12:01

Girl guides Scotland are hitting troll level now

https://twitter.com/tempie321/status/1049249300004458496

How the hell can they post this stuff and keep a straight face? It's appalling how dishonest and wilfully misleading this sort of stuff is. We are reading about girls describing the sexual harassment they experience in the press today https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45777787 and still this dishonest and cruel propaganda is being peddled as they welcome boys & men who identify as girls/women without a thought as to how girls feel. Girls experience sexual harassment daily, from a young age, and a claimed girl only organisation disregards their right to privacy and dignity in a space supposed to be away from males.

They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Badstyley · 08/10/2018 12:00

Isn’t that the same as the last one? Looks like it to me.

If I had a DD in GG I would not be satisfied with that. The answer to criticism of their safeguarding practices compromising girls’ safety is not just to say, no you’re wrong so shut up. I hope nobody is letting this go.

NotBadConsidering · 08/10/2018 11:56

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

I have a theory.

There are 3 possiblilties that being trans does to a male in terms of their risk to females:

  1. increase the risk
  2. the risk stays the same, or
  3. the risk decreases.

No one, particularly no one here, is saying option one occurs. No one. Most people think it’s option 2. But I think, that the GGs think, that it’s option 3. And I think they think that because certain people at Mermaids, who advise them, tell them that the puberty blockers and cross sex hormones (and even surgery) they should be getting would suppress this risk. Susie Green constantly talks about trans girls as if they’re under treatment, because that’s the way Mermaids want it, and I think they persuade, in their capacity as advisers that this is the case, and thus trans girls, males, can’t possibly be a threat to girls. The reality of what actually happens - boys who wish to identify as girls are not given any treatment because they are sensibly advised by the Tavistock clinic type model - is not conveyed. The possibility that there is deliberate misleading of the facts needs to be considered. This would make the GGs monumentally stupid for not researching properly and forming a policy based on this advice.

There is an alternative theory: that is that despite knowing that boys as trans girls present an equal risk, the GGs are deliberately ignoring that risk and putting girls at risk for the sake of appeasing males, but that would make them monumentally evil.

So either the GGs are monumentally stupid or monumentally evil. Either way, I can’t think of an explanation that makes their actions remotely reasonable. I am really trying to consider their perspective regarding risk assessment and safeguarding but I’ve seen nothing to suggest anything contrary to the two theories above.

scepticalwoman · 08/10/2018 11:52

86% of whom have told us, through the Girls’ Attitudes Survey, that they do not think people should be discriminated against because they are transgender
And that's what I'd expect. But I'd bet a lot of money that the Guides didn't ask girls if they'd be happy sleeping or showering next to someone with a penis. And I bet they didn't ask girls whether they'd be happy discussing their unexpected period with the transgender women leader on their guide camp.
To quote that statement as an argument about why girls are totally accepting of the guides changing to a mixed sex organisation without consultation is disingenuous in the extreme.

Redkeyboard · 08/10/2018 11:31

My friend is a guide leader and she is worried. Leaders & volunteers can't express their concerns for fear of being thrown out. They can't talk freely in case someone who doesn't agree reports them. They feel they can't risk being thrown out because they can see the safe guarding issues the changes are creating and want to protect the girls.

Girl Guiding what are you doing ? Can you not see yourselves?

Chocolate1984 · 08/10/2018 11:28

My friend is a guide leader and she is worried. Leaders & volunteers can't express their concerns for fear of being thrown out. They can't talk freely in case someone who doesn't agree reports them. They feel they can't risk being thrown out because they can see the safe guarding issues the changes are creating and want to protect the girls.

It's really teaching women and girls they aren't allowed to speak out.

DayMay · 08/10/2018 11:26

A 16 year old male has been in the press today, having done just what Green states isn't possible along with attempted murder of a 10 year old female.

JackyHolyoake · 08/10/2018 11:20

"We have developed our policy in line with legal advice and, in the case of our guidance around transgender members, organisations with experience of supporting transgender children and young people. Contrary to claims made on social media we do not make policy based on comments from individuals or pressure groups."

"We know that this is a new and complex area of law and we will continue to review our policies against the latest advice and guidance."

No, it is not a new and complex area of law. One law has existed for thirteen years and the other has existed for eight years.

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 applies to adult transsexuals only and it clearly acknowledges that humans cannot change sex and that it is creating a Legal Fiction.

The Equality Act 2010 affirms that "gender reassignment" is a protected characteristic. Section 7 of that Act specifies that "gender reassignment" applies to transsexuals only. www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

The terms "transgender", "transgirl", "transwoman", "transboy" and "transman" have no legal reognition since these terms are not written in any current law and have no legal definition.

The Equality Act also affirms that "sex" is a protected characteristic.
[Note that the word "gender" is never used except in relation to "reassignment", as applied to transsexuals only.]

"Sex" is defined as man or woman by this Act. The Equality Act defines man as: a male of any age; woman: a female of any age. [See: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212]

So, whoever provided legal advice to Girl Guiding has plainly misunderstood the law. GG needs to rescind this because it has been very poorly advised. Girl Guiding would do very well to familiarise itself with the Exceptions that are written in this Act, specifically to protect the right of girls and women to sex-segregated spaces, services etc. [ See: Schedule 23.3 Communal accommodation www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/23

and www.aroomofourown.org/a-uk-guide-for-non-lawyers-about-protecting-women-only-spaces-june-2016/ ]

VickyEadie · 08/10/2018 11:19

Surely the question is why a transgender child is to be deemed less of a risk than the leader's little boy of 8, or a girl's twin brother, or her friend, or any other nice, trusted boy of a similar age.

THIS. The 3 male classmates who sexually assaulted my best friend on the way home from school when we were 15 had been known to my friend since primary school - she didn't realise she was at risk from boys she knew.

It's downright negligence to make assumptions about boys, even the ones who now say they are girls.

MrsWinkly · 08/10/2018 11:05

How do they manage to ignore the stats regarding the dramatic increase of child on child crime?
Today we have another story of a 16 year old boy being arrested for rape and attempted murder of a 10 year old girl.
No reassurance in that GG response whatsoever, just another nose-thumbing in the direction of women and parents who have genuine concerns.

IHATEPeppaPig · 08/10/2018 11:00

They haven't actually said anything though - they haven't addressed the concerns on safeguarding?

JackyHolyoake · 08/10/2018 10:55

"Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person."

Girl Guiding, here, is utterly ignoring the necessary personal safeguarding that girls have to learn to assert their own boundaries and to say no to males. GG is removing that essential learning experience from girls. This is grooming girls to learn that they have no right to say no and no right to any personal boundaries from males, regardless of how they choose to present themselves.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 08/10/2018 10:43

Is this a new email?

If so, I eagerly await my copy so I can reply with my opinion of it.

Not that they ever replied to my last email.

SirVixofVixHall · 08/10/2018 10:41

Re the simply being trans doesn’t make an individual more of a risk. As pp has said, not necessarily, but being male does. How is anyone falling for this creepy gaslighting rubbish ? The public at large equate trans with transsexual, a post surgery, same sex attracted person, usually male. That is what everyone in real life assumes when I talk about self id. However, everyone knows that so far children are not having SRS. Nor can they get a GRC. So we are talking, legally and literally, physically and sexually, about BOYS. The way GG have twisted it to include boys as girls is disgraceful.
My mother wouldn’t let me join Guides, I worked out why, but for some reason she didn’t want me to do it. I’ve since wondered if she had some bad experience as a child or teenager in a youth group. I’ve mulled over Guides for the dds, but there is no way now I would let them join.

tearsdontcare · 08/10/2018 10:31

When I was in Guides, we had a horrible bully in our company for a while. She was an unpleasant person, with some issues, which she liked to take out on smaller people.

I remember her sitting on a younger girl, repeatedly punching her in the breasts. The patrol leader looked on, making ineffectual noises, as the bully was a friend of hers, plus she was afraid of her.

Suppose this bully had been much stronger, and in possession of a penis, as well as a trans halo that meant you couldn't criticise or complain about her?

Girl Guides policy is insane. If you have teenage boys and girls in the same space, you have to have rules, not because all boys are rapists, but because there are physical differences. Physical differences, not gender identities.

PussinWellies · 08/10/2018 10:31

Surely the question is why a transgender child is to be deemed less of a risk than the leader's little boy of 8, or a girl's twin brother, or her friend, or any other nice, trusted boy of a similar age.

happydappy2 · 08/10/2018 10:29

Just because 86% of girls don’t think that anyone should be discriminated against for being transgender, does not mean they think it’s ok to let Male bodied children share accommodation & showers with them. Girl Guides are so in the wrong on this.

bigKiteFlying · 08/10/2018 10:22

I'm beginning to think more and more that organisations are being wilfully obtuse

I've thought this for a while now.

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:21

refuted

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:20

I'm beginning to think more and more that organisations are being wilfully obtuse

It's the party line. Susie Green and Helen thingy from mermaids will use the one argument, oh my God are you saying children are rapists.

They have no other argument. That's the reason it sounds so silly. Because it's so easily reduted. It's worked, partly up until now. Because people are reluctant to use predatory in the same sentence as children.

But the argument will only last as long as the first person to turn around and say absolutely yes I am using those two words together.

Which one can do, because statistically one can evidence it.

And of course the second reason, which never gets any house room at all, is that girls who have already been subjected to objectification, sexual harassment and in many cases assault, absolutely want a female only space.

Datun · 08/10/2018 10:16

They also can't take autogynephilia into account.

The fact that a man identifying as a woman could very likely have it, quite publicly, is meaningless to them.

They explicitly said they don't ask about it.

It would've been better to say nothing than send that ridiculous email.

Jenala · 08/10/2018 10:14

Simply being transgender does not make someone more of a safeguarding risk than any other person.

Like many making this argument, the point is being entirelt missed. No one is saying that a trans individual is inherently more of a safeguarding risk than any other individual. What we are saying is that a blanket self ID acceptance policy opens the door to bad faith actors who will be willing to claim to be transgender in order to access spaces they should not - because self ID will make that a pretty easy option.

I'm beginning to think more and more that organisations are being wilfully obtuse, but I can't really think why unless I start down a bit of a conspiracy theory path. Maybe they genuinely think that the issue is simply fear of transgender people? They're not listening if so.

doublethink · 08/10/2018 10:13

They have not made any additional risk assessments about men being leaders. Someone in their safeguarding team told my friend this on the phone last week. My friend pushed them and said that due to transwomen having penises that additional risk assessments were needed, but the safeguarding person said that if they had an issue with the policy they needed to speak to the complaints department.

ClosdesMouches · 08/10/2018 10:09

We’re really proud of our robust safeguarding procedures which apply to everyone

Hmm
Datun · 08/10/2018 10:07

Crikey do these people get lessons in meaningless waffle?

And yes, being trans doesn't increase the risk of predation, but being male does. Male plus trans. Not female plus trans. Something that would have been pointed out to them, explicitly, over and over

Lying. Absolutely bloody lying. Their own survey is incorporated into a government report about how many girls are sexually assaulted in school!

I suspect they are panicking and have asked for further advice from what The Times calls a 'transgender interest group'. Who are now struggling to square the circle that they have forced the girl guides to uphold.

The guides need to exit from what is increasingly looking like an abusive relationship.

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