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Original poster

I stuck my head above the parapet

33 replies

anunseemlylovefordustin · 06/10/2018 22:21

After months of lurking and learning here, I've finally taken the step I've been afraid of, and joined twitter to engage in debate.

More scarily, I have posted on my own FB page. I've been so scared of offending or hurting my FB friends (many of whom are gay and a couple of whom are genuinely trans) but I've finally stuck my head above the parapet and said what I think. I feel terrified and relieved at the same time!

Thank you all on here for turning me from a lazy 'feminist in name only' to being a REAL, angry feminist. My daughter thanks you too, even though she's only 1 and doesn't know it yet.

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rightreckoner · 17/10/2018 12:23

I've peaked just about all the men in my office with Rachel McKinnon. Men get this immediately because they are not bothered about being nice. What they don't get is why women aren't furious. I've told them we are but bomb threats, banned meetings, being described as indulging in hate speech have all done their job. Men haven't faced any of this.

Original poster
anunseemlylovefordustin · 17/10/2018 12:11

My mum called yesterday to say that all 20 of her elderly ladies cycling group - they call themselves that, before I get flamed :) - have completed the consultation document this week, as well as half of their spouses. And my mums partner too. The message is spreading.

A direct quote from her 'What has really helped is the open letter from the transsexual ladies (I've lost the link!) which has helped to clarify the difference between genuinely trans people, who deserve our respect and kindness and to have all the rights of any other person, and the transgender activists, who seem determined to erase everyone else's rights and alienate everyone at the same time'

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morningtoncrescent62 · 15/10/2018 17:37

Well done, OP. A lot of my friends are long-time feminists and were posting about the attack on women's rights before I'd realised what was happening. I'm really glad they did as it enabled me to get informed and involved, and it sounds like that's what you're doing for your friends. It's important.

I've been a leftie feminist and out as lesbian for literally decades now and I've never felt so alienated from 'the LGBTQ+ movement' which seems to have become almost entirely 'TQ+' and sod everyone else. Much as I respect trans people's rights (and I do), I'm beyond furious at the way this is playing out.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 15/10/2018 14:35

Good for you OP!

Your mum's cycling club ladies might be interested in cyclist Rachel McKinnon.

DuggeesWoggle · 15/10/2018 14:33

I have shared the FPFW website on Facebook and invited people to complete the consultation. I have kept it simple and said that my main concern is around the safeguarding implications and the potential for the system to be abused. I don't wish to engage in discussions about trans issues as I am still working through the issues in my own mind and hate social media debate but felt that no one could really argue with the point about safeguarding. I don't think my friends are particularly 'woke' apart from a handful (we're all too old!) so hoping not to have started a bunfight. Only got one like so far so will probably be ignored by most!

I also spoke to a staunch labour supporting colleague this morning who was already 'peaked' (not by me, just her own observations) so said she would look at the consultation.

Probably isn't doing much as I am so totally nonconfrontational but hopefully it all helps. Feels good to not have just stood on the sidelines.

GreenGloves · 15/10/2018 14:29

From James Kirkup's article on Karen White:

“With self-ID policies we will effectively be giving the keys to women’s refuges to abusive men. If that happens, beyond a shadow of a doubt, women will die. Never ever underestimate the potential for abusive men to track down, find and torture their victim.”

From a women with 37 years' experience of managing shelters.

It sounds like you had experience of this growing up OP. Flowers

And well done on speaking out.

Biologicalreality · 15/10/2018 14:20

Well done. It continues to amaze me how many people just don’t know. I spoke to a sports journalist today who was completely unaware, but got the issue for women’s sport immediately.

Juells · 15/10/2018 14:18

Yes, I've been plugging away on FB for quite a while, to deathly silence, and it was the links to the 'Adult human female' poster being taken down that finally got responses - and admissions that they've been reading all the links I've posted.

ElfrideSwancourt · 15/10/2018 14:16

I broached the subject with friends this weekend- they genuinely didn't believe me that people could consider stating that women are adult human females could be in any way transphobic. They were quite shocked and very open to being peak-transed 😀

Juells · 15/10/2018 14:09

If your friend thinks that predatory men aren't as common as you think they are, then what are her objections to using a male bathroom? She can pee in peace in a cubicle surely?

Yeah, that's the bullshit that always gets me 😡 They're entitled to see men as scary and violent, but women are legitimate targets and should pretend all men are lovely?

Tragedy · 15/10/2018 14:08

I'm sure if we all stood still, and never moved about, then yeah, the chances of coming across predatory men is slim. But, I, like most women, have come across plenty and don't plan on becoming a hermit to allow men to take over public life entirely.

Oldstyle · 15/10/2018 13:58

Bit early to raise a glass to you OP Wine but will do so this evening. And to all of us who are stepping up and speaking out - even if it's just a whisper at first. Flowers Feels good to know that you are all out there, feministing like mad.

Original poster
anunseemlylovefordustin · 15/10/2018 09:25

Well...looks like I've lost a couple of friends! Both of them keep coming back to me, saying that the kind of scenario I'm describing just wouldn't happen, and that self ID won't make the slightest bit of difference, etc etc. Today one of them actually said that wouldn't it be worth the risk, so that thousands and thousands of trans people could finally feel accepted. So I've explained that no, I don't feel that it's worth the risk in the slightest. ....and I think that might be the end of our conversations Grin

I've filled in the consultation document. So I guess.....now, we wait? Fingers crossed for a sensible outcome.

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JackyHolyoake · 08/10/2018 20:14

anunseemlylovefordustin Very well done for going public. Welcome to the sisterhood.

That MtF acquaintance is no acquaintance at all; he is a man who places his needs above those of all women and has no hesitation in violating any women's or girls' boundaries for privacy, safety and dignity. He is saying "you have to live your lives on my terms". [A typical patriarchal male response.]

The FtM acquaintance sounds like an attempt will be made to "explain" to you that sex self-ID has no impact on the Equality Act 2010. This is not true. It has a massive impact on the Equality Act as these threads here on Mumsnet have made abundantly clear.

gendercritter · 08/10/2018 18:38

It's astonishing how many men don't have a clue about the reality of what women face. There aren't that many predatory men... yeah, sure. right. That doesn't tally with what I've experienced in my life at all.

It's basically saying you're hysterical, isn't it?

Noqont · 08/10/2018 18:21

Well done op.

Original poster
anunseemlylovefordustin · 08/10/2018 18:14

Sorry to keep updating the thread, but this is fascinating :)

So I know two trans people - one F2M and one M2F. Both of them have responded to my FB post over the last 24 hours.

The response from the M2F friend was pretty abrasive, minimising, condescending and basically told me I was wrong and didn't know what I was talking about.

The later response from the F2M friend was polite, calm, non-confrontational, he tried to explain some points about the proposed changes in the law and offered to discuss more if I wanted to.

Obviously only a straw poll of two, but I just thought it was incredibly interesting how different the style of response was, bearing their original genders in mind.

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Original poster
anunseemlylovefordustin · 07/10/2018 19:44

Exactly!

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NopeNi · 07/10/2018 19:39

Sorry you went through that Anun.

Yes, these refuges are vital places.

I do wonder what quota of women being abused would make it suddenly unacceptable to some people. When does "not as many as you'd think" become too many? (For me, logically it's "one").

oooompa · 07/10/2018 19:05

If your friend thinks that predatory men aren't as common as you think they are, then what are her objections to using a male bathroom? She can pee in peace in a cubicle surely?

Well done for speaking out, as of yet I'm still too afraid to do so on Facebook. Twitter just gets me anxious, everything I read just makes me feel even more like we're completely screwed Sad

Original poster
anunseemlylovefordustin · 07/10/2018 18:55

Oh, I like those points, thank you. Especially that last one, I will use that. I'll google those names too. I still don't feel like I'm educated enough on the subject!

I have to admit that my initial response to seeing that she had commented was AAAAAAAAAAAGH!!! but because my post was about protections in DV shelters - and because I have direct experience of my mum, with us three kids in tow, literally being hunted across the country by my bio father (until we managed to get into a shelter) - I suddenly found a bit of fire in my belly to respond quite vigorously to the 'I think you'll find that predatory men are not as common as you think' comment :)

It's so encouraging to see everyone else talking about IRL conversations too. My mum was my first one, she's going to go off and talk to her cycling club ladies. I'm mustering my courage to talk to my staff next week (we are all female and all quite close, but I don't think they're aware of any of this at all). The idea that all over the country lots of us are doing the same thing fills me with a tentative hope.

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ShimmyShimmyYa · 07/10/2018 18:15

Hey, Op- well done!
Could you explain to your friend that it's not just the "predatory male" aspect of shared spaces but the dignity and privacy that goes out the window when a woman has to undress in front of a person she knows to be male.
the other thing is that your friend knows that they're not predatory but i don't- so will feel pretty threatened by their presence in the changing room anyway.
perhaps your friend feels in some way threatened in the male changing room but this is not the resposibility of women to sort out.

NopeNi · 07/10/2018 18:04

Well done OP!

Maybe point your friend at Debbie Hayton and Miranda Yardley? If you hear a "truscum" reply then your friend is not a keeper.

Original poster
anunseemlylovefordustin · 07/10/2018 17:57

Well...what I'd been dreading actually happened, and my m2f trans FB 'friend' (not a close friend, but I am
aware of her situation and really didn't want to offend her) is not happy (she thinks I'll find that predatory men are less common that I think, and the 'predatory man in a dress' fearmongering is what terfs use to deny people like her the right to pee in peace etc). After the initial drop in my stomach, it wasn't actually all that bad replying and trying to explain my worries. So it looks like (for me, anyway) it was the first step that was the scariest!

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Needmoresleep · 06/10/2018 23:13

Not to you at all, sorry, but to sciencelover, who seems to a chosen to spend their Saturday evening scattering this board with a number of strange posts.

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