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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fionne Orlander

215 replies

CAAKE · 05/10/2018 20:52

Good one Fionne! Thanks

Fionne Orlander
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SlowlyShrinking · 05/01/2019 14:08

Joss seems to be refusing to debate with Fionne (for whatever reason Wink) whilst simultaneously claiming that Fionne would be brave to debate live because she (Fionne) ‘couldn’t back up her bullshit’
Darvo or what?!

Yambabe · 05/01/2019 13:51

Happy to support Fionne publicly on twitter and less publicly on here.

I think she has a healthy attitude to herself obtained by many years of battling dysphoria and I'm delighted that she can embrace both her male biology and her feminine feelings.

I just wish others would actually listen to what she is saying. There is no "the Terfs". There is however a wide variety of people across all walks of life who don't agree with the trans idealogy and want to talk about it.

Joss Prior is a dick though, barging into a respectful and interesting discussion between two transwomen and chucking insults at Fionne without actually presenting an opposing view for consideration. Male entitlement much? Sad

PineappleSunrise · 05/01/2019 12:32

It was a real generation divide moment for me! Not the angst over good people/shared politics - I think that's actually quite normal - but the fact that she was grousing about it to thousands of people on Twitter. Her parents must be "offline." Which reminds me, I must remind my kids to do their future bitching about me on What's App or a similar future product to people they actually know. Grin

Katvonbatshit · 05/01/2019 12:11

pineapple Grin

PineappleSunrise · 05/01/2019 12:03

That's an interesting point, Kat. I popped onto Twitter a couple of times over Christmas and noticed that a significant proportion of my twitterstream was fairly young-ish (20-something) people angsting about bad family relationships at Christmas.

One really stood out to me, though: someone I know professionally was really struggling with the fact that she doesn't get on with her parents, but finds herself politically aligned with them so "they're not bad people." Her cognitive dissonance over the fact that people can be toxic AND share all your political views was striking.

Imagine the next step, when she realises that sometimes people can be balanced, good people and NOT share your political views on everything. Her head may explode...

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 12:01

Fionne Orlander Twitter comment, "A point illustrated by @ jackappleby & @ dragonwaking and myself"

twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1081268997579067393

Fionne Orlander
Fionne Orlander
Fionne Orlander
DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 05/01/2019 12:00

Fionne, this terf thinks you are fabulous.

Katvonbatshit · 05/01/2019 11:54

They are always saying that sort of thing. Cheap shots. Really manipulative.

People can have diverse friends and not agree 100% on everything all the time.

Crazy idea eh? Not you lot though TRAs.

waterlego6064 · 05/01/2019 11:46

Not sure if it was Joss or somebody else, but someone on Twitter told Fionne that ‘TERFs’ are nice to her face but horrible behind her back.

This thread disproves that, so I hope they’re reading 🙂

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 05/01/2019 11:43

I loved the anecdote about Fionne in the men's lavatory. That is class.

PencilsInSpace · 05/01/2019 11:41

Ironically, it generally does seem to be the trans people who aren't hung up on pronouns and who accept being male who it's easy to call 'she'

It makes sense. I don't think any of us want to be deliberately rude for no reason. Probably most of us used to be OK using preferred pronouns when it was simply a matter of courtesy and not compelled speech designed to disappear women's rights. It feels safe to call Fionne 'she' because we know he doesn't have that agenda.

From Helen Saxby's WPUK talk in Brighton:

The phrase ‘transwomen are women’ is naively understood to be simply a courtesy to a male trans person, a sign of allyship. If you don’t join in, because you stick to the definition of women which is biologically correct, you are nailing your colours to the mast and this is risky. There is a huge amount of abuse directed at women who refuse to do as they are told, and this fact demonstrates that the use of ‘transwomen are women’ is not as benign as it first seems. If you wish to be ‘nice’ to someone, that is your free choice, but if you are punished for NOT being ‘nice’ then it is no free choice at all and it begins to look more like bullying and coercion.

...

‘Transwomen are women’ is political dogma, repeated endlessly and deliberately in order to reinforce the message. Because there is #nodebate it has been made almost impossible to counter. For this reason I now reject, as a political act in my turn, the notion that ‘transwomen are women’. It has nothing to do with ‘hate’ or ‘transphobia’ or ‘bigotry’. If the political arm of the Anti Kitten-Stomping League was trying to infringe on women’s rights, I’d fight them too: it wouldn’t mean that I approved of stomping on kittens. It is purely a political defence of the rights of women and girls, against a political movement which threatens those rights. It is undemocratic to threaten and abuse women who speak out on this.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 11:38

If you don't exhibit the red flags of male entitlement and possible danger, women react well to you. If you fly those flags with aggressive abandon, they don't.

Who knew?!

howonearthdidwegethere · 05/01/2019 11:34

I like Fionne. And remember the comment about using the men's loos.

Although I have to say, I would not feel safe calling out a transwoman using female toilets. And therein lies the rub.

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 11:30

On a recent thread, OtherPamAyres wrote:

"I loved an anecdote by one of letter's signatories, Fionne Olander, about emerging from a cubicle in the gents and being faced with a bloke at the urinals.
He looked confused and asked her whether he was in the Guy's toilets.
She replied: "Yes. I'm a guy"
He said: "Well you're a very pretty guy"
She dried her hands, said 'thank you' and walked out, head high.

That's my kind of transwoman and she gets a flowers from me.

So does that bloke at the urinals flowers "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals?pg=17&messages=25

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 11:19

BTW, I'm not suggesting that a person's serenity, attractiveness or style shouldn't be admired. Smile

happydappy2 · 05/01/2019 11:18

I think the fact that Fionne respects womens sex segregated spaces, means she is no threat to women, in return many people are happy to use ‘she’ when referring to Fionne as respect goes both ways.
The TWAW mantra just gets people hackles up as it is a blatant lie.

Katvonbatshit · 05/01/2019 11:13

But isn't Fionne's serenity kind of like part of the message? Take them or leave them, they have embraced themselves. It's attractive in itself that message.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2019 11:02

Ironically, it generally does seem to be the trans people who aren't hung up on pronouns and who accept being male who it's easy to call 'she'

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 05/01/2019 11:02

R0, yes you are probably right. Which is rather depressing!

R0wantrees · 05/01/2019 11:00

Women do respond to Fionne in a different way to men or even other GC trans accounts.

I've been wondering if this also contributes to the number of comments focussed on Fionne's serenity and appearance rather than the points she makes?

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 05/01/2019 10:45

Yes, I know Fionne is male but I find it difficult to use ‘he’ for Fionne.

I've noticed that phenomena in Twitter engagements. Women do respond to Fionne in a different way to men or even other GC trans accounts. It's clearly subconscious but women do seem interact as with another woman - ironically, perhaps because Fionne is so open about acknowledging her (and yes, I'm doing it too!) male biology and refusing to infiltrate women's spaces.

I think this may be the reason Joss and co get so angry about her. There is no way they will ever be treated or accepted like that and the more they bully and posture the less chance they have. They also have no intention of listening to or respecting women, perhaps because they can't and won't let go of all that conditioning. Fionne not only represents what they can never be, she is aware of the constraints of sex and doesn't disguise that.

And yes, Fionne is constantly graceful and measured in the face of extreme provocation!

ScipioAfricanus · 05/01/2019 10:30

Another person here who admires Fionne - a person who is actually challenging gender norms and applying empathy as well as receiving it.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 10:29

Morning, Joss! How are you on this fine Saturday morning?

Katvonbatshit · 05/01/2019 10:21

It's interesting the idea that the majority of women are totes happy with all transactivist demands. As Prior claims in that thread.
I think the Populus survey for Fair play for Women is a pretty accurate reflection of people's views. Obviously TRAs wouldn't even look at that, which is a shame as it is an proper weighted survey.

I do think women sympathise with trans people, we just got to work out how we help and support those with disphoria whilst protecting our sex based rights.

Prior is a fundamentalist and seems incapable of even recognising there's another equally valid side to this. You don't win hearts and minds by bullying and threats hun.

Waves at the monitors. 😘

SpareRibFem · 05/01/2019 09:59

I started following Fionne on twitter for the quirky pictures they post of places (feels like a lifetime ago). I'd be proud if Fionne was my son, lovely person with an interesting personality. Genuinely challenging gender stereotypes and enriching the lives of people who knows them in the process. Never going to bring me around to seeing rats as cute though, that's a step too far.

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