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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fionne Orlander

215 replies

CAAKE · 05/10/2018 20:52

Good one Fionne! Thanks

Fionne Orlander
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OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/01/2019 07:49

Joss Prior
@joss_prior
Join me
@DrAdrianHarrop
, &
@FionneOrlander
in a festival of fun, wit, opinion and live discussion on youtube.

Friday 18th january.

Time/channel to be announced.

waterlego6064 · 05/01/2019 20:39

Great posts FeministCat. Glad you hit peak trans and found MN. There is so much informed and rigorous discussion here. I have learned almost everything I know about feminism from the amazing women here.

I totally understand those who will never refer to a TW as she.

hellandhairnets and teawamutu have said it better than I ever could, and I can only hope that other feminists don’t see me as a handmaiden for it. 😬

FeministCat · 05/01/2019 20:12

Thanks for the welcome LangCleg

hellandhairnets yes, for sure, I recall well how the horrible homophobia had severe consequences during the AIDS crisis that I don’t think can ever be forgiven and certainly not forgotten. And certainly my remembrance does not extinguish those other experiences that girls and women can identify with due to very fact they are girls and women (sexual assault and violence, for one).

But I feel we were on the way. That we were going to get there. But now I feel like I took a short nap and woke up to find the rights I now naively assumed would be picked up and carried on by were instead gift wrapped and handed right back again.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 18:28

(If you give an inch, I mean. A mile is taken)

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 18:27

I can't be mis-sexing in this political climate, for anyone, no matter how nice or how aligned with my views they are. No pasaran, I'm afraid.

Fair enough Lang. I do see your point. Give an inch...

FeministCat I feel much the same way as you. It seems obvious to me. I don't want to get too misty-eyed about the 80s/90s (the normalised rampant homophobia and Mrs T for a start) but I consider myself lucky I grew up then and not now. It feels as if we had an all-too-brief window of freedom. I don't think it is at all coincidental that transgenderism has flourished at the same time that sex stereotype boxes have re-emerged with such rigidity in society.

FeministCat · 05/01/2019 17:24

*patent leather shoes.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 17:22

Welcome, FeministCat!

FeministCat · 05/01/2019 17:19

Rowantrees

I am going to get off track a bit from thread but I think I need to start substituting “sex stereotypes” for gender when I talk to people in my life as it seems to me so many people don’t understand that *gender” is nothing more than a made up construct, or that the make-believe varies in time, country, culture, generations, etc. They hear gender and think sex, so the people I meet day to day don’t understand that transgender does not mean the old school transsexuals we knew of and were friends with 20-30 years ago.

I mean it was not all that long ago in the Western world (16th-early 20th century) that all children wore “dresses” - boys were only “breeched” (put in trousers or breeches) once they hit 2-8. The purpose of this was related to toilet training. There is a picture, for example, of Franklin D Roosevelt - seen in US as one of the greatest presidents, but also as far as I can tell accepted to be a man - at 2.5, from the 1880s, wearing long hair, payment leather party shoes, and a white dress/skirt, holding a pretty hat with a feather. Would these TRAs go back, see that picture of a boy in a dress and party shoes, and revise history to claim FDR was a “trans kid”, and say he should be put on puberty blockers? Well, now that I say that - some would, because it is shown time and time again context is not relevant. And until the 1920 and 1930s, pink was routinely considered the appropriate colour “for boys” (eg. Time magazine, 1927).

Then social expectations and customs changed again and dresses and pink become more stereotypically associated with girls. And now many - specifically many of these TRAs - not only rely on and reinforce these “newer” stereotypes to claim themselves as transgender, because they aren’t “their gender”. No, you reject sexual stereotypes - that are particular to the time, society, country, culture, generation you are in - which does not make you unique or not your sex

Anyway, hi all I am new here and stumbled here recently after reaching peak trans. As someone who grew up as a non-conforming to sex stereotypes girl in the 80, 90s, where I felt the message was I could be whatever I wanted and do whatever I wanted, where my uni classes were still called Women’s Studies, I feel we are seeing a massive backslide of girls and women’s rights, and it angers me. I also am pained by what I see happening to children - if I - who is still not conforming to sex stereotypes - was a child today, or my brother was a child today - who as a young boy said he wanted to grow up to be not only a woman, but a Chinese woman, and is today a very happy gay man married to an equally happy gay man - well, I could see how my mothers acceptance of us as we were would be seen as “abuse” by TRAs and so on and we would be encouraged to secretly take puberty blockers and hormones and so on. The “could have been” is horrific, and the future some of these children face is incredibly saddening to me. I am childfree and sterilized, but I give a damn more about these children then those pushing them to forever alter their bodies and medical futures - before they even understand the implications - do.

That was getting off track, but I just wanted to say it is refreshing to see someone like Fionne in all this insanity.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 17:17

I can't be mis-sexing in this political climate, for anyone, no matter how nice or how aligned with my views they are. No pasaran, I'm afraid.

Fionne is great.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 17:16

To be clear, I still don't, of course, think they're women.

Me neither. Biologically male, always.

teawamutu · 05/01/2019 17:05

To be clear, I still don't, of course, think they're women.

And I'm not sure it's even about liking them, although I do. Just something about the way they approach the world - they get our viewpoint as far as they can, admit they'll never feel exactly the same way and are ok with that. That feels far more like female socialisation than male - hence easier to use pronouns if preferred.

I probably do need to do more thinking about this, just musing aloudBlush

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 17:04

It's a fair point, but I don't have an issue with courtesy - or nuance.

In reality, I don't naturally tend to call transsexuals "men" even though they are biologically male or unless they specifically ask me to do so (a la Miranda). I don't consider that "impure" or just as a result of conditioning. It is partly just habitual, I agree, but also don't think in reality and in our culture it is that simple either or entirely accurate. It depends partly on context. (as evidenced by the reaction of the man in the Gents to Fionne.)

I can't in all honestly say that in real life I'd look at Fionne and see "man" I don't see "woman" either - I realistically see someone who identifies as trans. i.e. unquestionably a biological male who both presents and names themselves in a way that many women in reality do.

Strangely, I do tend to call (male) cross-dressers men and have in the past found myself distinguishing quite easily between what we used to call transsexuals and transvestites. I'd guess it is that picking up of the difference between those with AGP and dysphoria - and the social cues that involves.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/01/2019 16:40

I might refer to a man as female/feminine but never a woman. Can’t do it.

vaginafetishist · 05/01/2019 16:40

Knowing the first thing about being female isn't the point, they are all men. What's wrong with being a man?

terryleather · 05/01/2019 16:36

Calling a man 'she' because you like them is a baffling feminist move.

I agree with you vagina, I have a lot of time for Miranda for example but I wouldn't call them she.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 05/01/2019 16:32

I follow Fionne in twitter and - from what I see (I’m always suspicious of going by what people choose to show you) they seem a really genuinely nice person who is confident and happy in their own skin. And they love their little ratties.

I’m not sure if they say he/she about themselves - but this is one person where I’d respect their choice because they respect women and women issues/fears/thoughts. Others, I couldn’t do this for as they don’t know the first thing about being female (or care a toss either).

vaginafetishist · 05/01/2019 16:25

We're always trying to say it's not personal, it's a matter of accuracy and truth.

vaginafetishist · 05/01/2019 16:24

Calling a man 'she' because you like them is a baffling feminist move.

welshgendercrit · 05/01/2019 16:14

I think the fact that Fionne respects women's sex segregated spaces, means she is no threat to women, in return many people are happy to use ‘she’ when referring to Fionne as respect goes both ways.
The TWAW mantra just gets people hackles up as it is a blatant lie.

Exactly. I've followed Fionne on Twitter for some time and love her calm commonsense and clearsightedness, qualities in far too short supply on social media.

Neurotrash · 05/01/2019 15:54

And like others on this thread, I'm struck that the trans women I naturally accept as 'she' with no effort (Miranda, Fionne O etc) are the ones who are quite clear that they're NOT women. The empathy and consideration are so markedly different from Prior, Madigan et al.

It's not being 'forced to penetrate.'

Queenofthedrivensnow · 05/01/2019 14:45

Oh I love her. Big twitter fan

teawamutu · 05/01/2019 14:44

Just followed Fionne and I'm a little bit in love - so wise, calm and clear.

And like others on this thread, I'm struck that the trans women I naturally accept as 'she' with no effort (Miranda, Fionne O etc) are the ones who are quite clear that they're NOT women. The empathy and consideration are so markedly different from Prior, Madigan et al.

hellandhairnets · 05/01/2019 14:34

I think she has a healthy attitude to herself obtained by many years of battling dysphoria and I'm delighted that she can embrace both her male biology and her feminine feelings.

I think so too. Got a lot of time for Fionne, she's mature and way calmer with it all than I would be able to be. And has amazing sense of personal style to boot.

I think becoming GC must be relatively recent as Fionne is still quite young, and I know she said it took a while before realising Miranda Yardley was not the ogre Miranda is always portrayed to be. There are other younger trans people coming out the other side, as it were, the way Fionne has and towards honest self-acceptance, but still far too few.

It makes me furious that so many young people are being held back in this ridiculous ideological prison, which dooms them to spend all their efforts & energy trying to police an external world that can never be made to concur with their subjective realities. It's toxic and unhealthy and just serves to magnify and cement any underlying MH problems there are. I really do hope things'll be moving beyond this limited, toxic way of thinking at some point soon and towards true self-acceptance and freedom.

VaginalAcoustic1212 · 05/01/2019 14:25

Joss ain't worth the breath. I've already wasted more than 30 letters of type on them. That'll do.

LangCleg · 05/01/2019 14:12

If you refuse to acknowledge red flags, you don't know when you're flying them for all to see.

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