Debbie Hayton letter Times 05.10.18

Once you get the mental image of a group of men angrily arguing over which of them is most entitled to be a woman it kinda sticks.
The dickless gang Vs the certificated gang Vs the FeelingsAreEnough gang all duking it out over which are the best women.

Meanwhile, the females are over here, with our ovaries and chromosomes and uteruses and actual lives, suddenly realising that none of them actually see us as full humans at all.

AngryAttackKittens I had never even thought of the earlier changes being by men, for men. How very clear it is now.

No women or girls consented, because we were never asked. One group of blokes lobbied another group of blokes to grant them access to women's spaces, and the latter group of blokes said "yes, in this specific set of circumstances". The fact that another group of blokes later came along, decided that they found the set of circumstances decided on earlier inconvenient, and demanded that the circumstances required to grant a legal right to enter those spaces be amended to "because I say so" is the immediate reason for a lot of women getting really angry and deciding that they've had just about enough of this shit, but that is a separate (though related) issue to the fact that we were never consulted or asked for our consent in the first place. And apparently old school transsexuals didn't think that mattered. Now that women are starting to realize that whatever previous sympathy some of us may have had for that specific group is fading rapidly for many.

You should always have asked us first. You didn't. We're allowed to be angry about that.

But I would always have felt uncomfortable and angry with males in female spaces but I would never have voiced it.

This is a very good point. There is this assumption that women were happy to share their spaces with male transsexuals until the tra came along, expanded the definition of trans and spoilt everything.

But I think what actually is happening is that the internet has given women the opportunity to say what they think and what they have always thought.

The internet has also given transpeople a voice too, and now we can see that it isn't just transsexuals in our spaces, but transvestite too, and it always has been.

I don't consent, Debbie

I think it needs to be said again that not wanting to be a man doesn't make a man a woman. Neither does amputating bodyparts or messing around with your endocrine system or getting artificial bodyparts added.

A woman is an actual identifiable, distinct, coherent form of human. A woman really is complete and whole, an entity in her own right - not a kind of man minus a penis.

It is sexist for men to think they can become women or even anything approximately like a woman.

It is sexist to put your fingers in your ears and sing "la la la" when women inform you they don't want any males in single sex spaces.

I feel uncomfortably forced out of my female socialisation to be so confrontational about it. But I would always have felt uncomfortable and angry with males in female spaces but I would never have voiced it.

I get the feeling debbie that you think I would have been fine all along if it wasn't for the TRAs messing things up - as though I am swept along by popular opinion - which again feels belittling and, well, sexist.

My opinion does matter. As does my lack of consent.

Don't take the disabled spaces either, you need to sort your own.

Additional multifunctional unisex facilities, where logistically possible, would be a win-win helping many groups (parents with opposite sex children, for instance).

Debbie, I condemn any threats against you.
My objections to you using female spaces in no way means I condone threats, and I suspect you know that.

Regarding your response, well, others have already answered beautifully that of course you don't have consent, unless you know and have gained it from every woman present. And a child can't consent to an adult in any case.

I'm sorry to keep repeating this, but I'm not going to debate my personal boundaries with you, or those of my miniBarracker.
You and I both know we are the opposite sex. If you respect us you will respect our right to privacy within our own sex. That isn't a plea to you, or an invitation to debate, that you'd prefer to save for over a drink in the pub. It's a demand and it's a hard line you must not cross.

I'm female. There will be times when I invoke my right to be in an exclusively female environment. Respect that.

We’re now there, that goodwill has been lost.

Debbie you need to campaign for third spaces and I for one support you in that.

Don't take the disabled spaces either, you need to sort your own.

Debbie, I heard you speak at WPUK meeting Birmingham.

I enjoyed your play with the TWAW mantra. I appreciated your stance on biology and the statement that you are not a women but identify with women.

You also spoke about how damaging the widening umbrella of trans was to people with dysphoria.

You spoke of your fears ,that the threat to women would cause women who previously welcomed you to now reject you, as they are forced into protection of thier spaces.

Looks like we arrived, doesn't it?

So what now? You seem to understand the dangers and recognise the fears as realistic.

In this case standing with women is to respect thier boundaries.

Are you able to prioritise safety for women above the wishes of DH?

Yes, sadly the appeals to the lunatics to shut up before transsexuals lost the ‘right’ to female spaces as a goodwill gesture hasn’t worked. We’re now there, that goodwill has been lost.

Debbie you need to campaign for third spaces and I for one support you in that.

I'm also with Baracker. Sorry Debbie, but if you're ever in a female, sex segregated space with me or my daughters, I'm afraid you're there without our invitation or consent. Or indeed Iif you're there with ANY woman who hasn't specifically & freely said 'Come in Debbie, you're welcome'.

& we shouldn't have to be the ones telling you this.

It would send out a very powerful message if you were campaigning for third spaces. I'd be shoulder to shoulder with you on that.

I am utterly appalled that the government have allowed things to get this stage. The threats of violence are not acceptable

This. There is a shocking abrogation of duty from politicians across the board.

Transsexuals have been sharing women's spaces since the 1950s (and maybe even before).

I'm not sure it was with enthusiastic consent all of the time.

Also, we are not just talking about public toilets anymore, we are talking about hospital wards, prisons and children and teenagers sleeping arrangements.

It's not just the fact that the trans umbrella has increased, it's that safeguarding is seen as more important now than in the 1950s.

If you understand the objections then why are you still in women's spaces? Why were you ever in those spaces, if you can see why women wouldn't be happy about it?

I understand the objections. It gives me no pleasure to refer back to a blog post I wrote two years ago when I predicted this shift in sentiment. Transsexuals have been sharing women's spaces since the 1950s (and maybe even before). Our position now is now weaker and not stronger. I am urging my fellow transgender activists to wake up to reality.

Excerpt from my post (November2016)
"Transwomen in particular may find that goodwill is replaced by suspicion should abusive men spot an opportunity to exploit women’s spaces and protections.

The real losers will not be those who are antagonistic to trans people, but trans people themselves. Protections may be weakened not strengthened if self-declaration replaces expert testimony, and gender identity replaces gender reassignment as a protected characteristic. We need to reflect on the reality of the society we live in before we rush into a world where facts are replaced by feelings and evidence is replaced by the ethereal."

debbiehayton.wordpress.com/2016/11/29/caution-urged-when-parliament-debates-changes-to-trans-rights/

I'm not sure what this concept of "invitation and consent" means, either, to be honest.

Women are socialised to swallow our discomfort and to go along to get along. How do you know the consent is meaningful, freely given etc, and how would you know if it was withdrawn? They're nice words, but what is the practical application?

I am sorry to hear that deranged types are threatening you, and hope you have lots of RL support.

Also a little fistbump to Barracker for her illuminating posts.

Yes, I styled myself as a transgender activist. I am transgender and I am an activist. I seek solutions that work for both trans people and women.

What are those solutions? Given that women want and need sex segregation, what solutions are you suggesting?

Debbie

I am utterly appalled that the government have allowed things to get this stage. The threats of violence are not acceptable and I hope you have RL support and police are taking them seriously.

Unfortunately the day has come, and I knew it was coming, when I have to say, no. No males, no lies, no fucking compromise. And I have to say no, even though I like you.

Every letter I send, despite being clear that I want children safeguarded and women’s spaces women only, I do also point out that transsexuals have been let down, very badly, by the failure to reign in the extreme activism.

Stonewall you’re culpable here and I’m disgusted.

Debbie, I hope you are being supported over the threats.

Don't take this personally. I don't want to share with you either. I am sorry that hurts, it hurts me to find unexpected males where they are unexpected, I hope you understand.

Debbie I am a woman. I don’t know you, but please note that you do not have my consent to use female spaces.

Barracker The clarity, strength and common sense in your posts is wonderful. Please keep writing them.

Sorry to hear about the threats of violence, Debbie. Whatever disagreements there may be on this thread, I'm sure we all find them abhorrent.

Yes that does seem disingenuous.

Either

1. you haven't got any consent or invite and are telling fibs.
2. you have a very unusual contractural concept of 'group consent' which is not consensus, but more akin to male entitlement (eg- she said yes once that means always, if she said yes, so should you, etc), or
3. it just doesn't occur to you that a lack of protest may not mean invitation or consent (male entitlement again).

It would be impossible to get actual consent in all cases.

I would still use female spaces by invitation and consent

What invitation and consent, and which spaces? If you are using random women's spaces such as toilets and changing rooms there has been no invitation or consent given.

(Invitations given by one woman do not mean that all women and girls have consented.)