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Original poster

How would you risk assess this?

34 replies

averylongtimeago · 04/10/2018 18:17

This is the new REN (residential event notification) form that any leader in Guiding has to send off for approval before girls can be taken away.
You have to include risk assessments for everything- including any males who may be on site.

However, what am I to do about the gender neutral attendees? Where do they sleep? Which loos and showers do they use?

How the hell do I risk assess that?

How would you risk assess this?
OP posts:
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R0wantrees · 05/10/2018 11:16

oops

How would you risk assess this?
R0wantrees · 05/10/2018 11:16

sincere apologies for not attributing this.

It came from Twitter.

I think it makes the really clear point that there has to be a separation between sex and gender identity.

Its important though to recognise that there are more than three options eg transwoman, transman and non-binary.
Some transwoman also idetify as non-binary, some people's gender identity is agender, some people are gender fluid etc

R0wantrees · 05/10/2018 11:04

Janice says they are bringing their husband, dave.

How do you find out how Dave self identifies, in order to know whether you need separate accommodation for dave as a male, or not?

Anna says she is bringing her mother, Jane.

Keeptrudging · 05/10/2018 11:01

What about non-binary/genderfluid/pansexual? Do they just go in whichever tent they identify with each day?

littlbrowndog · 05/10/2018 11:01

So how can you risk assess if there is stuff that is not knowen

Bonkers and where to start on filling in the form in without knowledge of the risks

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 10:58

and I'm not sure it's approrpiate (or legal?) to ask anyway

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 10:57

Yes correct

dave also does not need to shave their beard off or anything

there is no way of knowing how dave IDs without asking

Popchyk · 05/10/2018 10:54

But Dave presumably doesn't even need to assume a female name to be considered a woman?

What if Dave were called Taylor? Is he male or female?

And what if Dave declines to state his gender for privacy reasons? How do you know if he is male or not?

Sorry, OP. I am not helping here.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 10:54

Can you go back and say you are finding the new form hard to complete and ask for guidance notes?

Most stuff has guidance notes if it's not super obvious.

This form is not super obvious at all.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 05/10/2018 10:53

avery -

yes

but what popchyk is getting at is

Janice says they are bringing their husband, dave.

How do you find out how Dave self identifies, in order to know whether you need separate accommodation for dave as a male, or not?

You can't ask.

How do you know? How can you do the risk assessment? You have no idea if dave is male and no way of finding out.

littlbrowndog · 05/10/2018 10:50

If an adult self identifies as not being a woman

What does that even mean ?

Pantah630 · 05/10/2018 10:47

Off to email OSM/OGM to ask they revert back to sex not gender for the records.

Pantah630 · 05/10/2018 10:45

They will only wake up when the volunteers stop volunteering if you do please come across to Scouting we need volunteers too or worse, a teenage girl gets pregnant on camp.

enrichedatthegulags · 05/10/2018 10:31

They are incredibly confused with the terms. This is pretty shocking.

Original poster
averylongtimeago · 05/10/2018 10:24

I have been called a bigot and transphobic because I said, in those circumstances, I would not share a bedroom or tent with "Davina".

OP posts:
Original poster
averylongtimeago · 05/10/2018 10:22

If he says he's male, then you treat him as male. Separate facilities, separate sleeping arrangements, included in your risk assessment.

If Dave says they are "Davina" even if they have a full beard and are very much male bodied, then you have to accept them as female, and I assume you don't need to risk assess them as male either as that would be transphobic.

The same applies to children.

OP posts:
Popchyk · 05/10/2018 10:18

But how do you know how someone self-identifies?

Say it is a big residential trip and there are a number of leaders and children from throughout the county gathering there. Janice (female) has said that she is bringing her husband Dave as a helper. Fine.

How do you know how Dave self-identifies? Asking him would be transphobic surely? How could you work out whether he is male or not?

Original poster
averylongtimeago · 05/10/2018 10:11

Well they have answered that one, it's how you feel, obviously. Your biology has nothing to do with it.

How would you risk assess this?
OP posts:
Popchyk · 05/10/2018 09:31

How do you know if someone is male or not?

Genuine question.

And one which GG will avoid answering like the plague.

Original poster
averylongtimeago · 05/10/2018 08:26

So you can see the problems guide leaders are having with the "new" rules.
On everything else guiding is shit hot about safeguarding- in the last year the amount of training leaders have to do has been improved and increased. We have to risk assess everything- at the meeting place and when we go out.
And now this.

We can't ask if a child or adult is trans. We can't tell anyone else, even in general terms.
If they say they are female, then they are. If another girl (or leader) has an issue, then they can "request " to use a different space.

And this is their response if you don't like it: basically if you don't like it, leave.

OP posts:
mimivanne · 04/10/2018 23:56

Averylongtime ago

'How the hell do I assess that?'

You shouldn't, or make any attempt to assess this level of risk

Serfisafleur · 04/10/2018 23:26

Also send this to your MP.

Redkeyboard · 04/10/2018 23:03

Ask them, and get it in writing.

Noqont · 04/10/2018 22:46

And as GG have said it is up to the individual leader to risk assess, I can guess exactly where the buck would stop.

Yep sounds like it. And that is an impossible task. I would bat it back to them personally, because, apart from having an adult standing on guard all night, there's nothing you can do to eliminate risk.

UpstartCrow · 04/10/2018 22:35

Ask them for precise clarification and to take responsibility for the consequences.
Its impossible to fill it in, comply with the law, and stick to safeguarding. So the form is in breach of safeguarding.

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