PM radio four - Stonewall petition

Ruth - it's a legal fiction, and nowhere does it say transwomen are women.

rtb great post. Might be worth a thread of its own. Personally I think late teens/twenties are aware of their sexual attractiveness as a "power" and cling onto that as it's the only advantage they have.
Of course it's an illusion and I don't believe any women get a job because they slept with the boss. The perception of "attractiveness = power" is a bone the patriarchy throws young women to make them feel powerful and also give them a reason to discount older women (we aren't so attractive so we aren't powerful and therefore irrelevant)
It's depressing really. Would be interesting to go back to those 18 year olds today and see if things worked out for them the way they thought and if they still hold those views.

It would be great to have a transcript of what Ruth Hunt actually said.

What did Ruth actually say about the meeting?

Yes: access to powerful people that feminists can only fantasise about. Yet they are supposed to be 'marginalised'. For oppressed people they certainly spend a lot of time meeting MPs, the leaders of public services and the bosses of charity service providers.

I wonder if this will be some kind of Stonewall/TELI/etc organized meeting that will basically just be the same kind of rhetoric we have heard a million times from the trans activist side. Presented without inviting any opposing views from feminists or gender-critical people, and then they can say "we discussed it."

There were a lot of meetings & events just before the consultation.

There's likely to be a lot at the end.

And of course, in between there's been the summer break and party conferences!

Isn't there some kind of lobbying schedule

I just had a browse of the schedule, couldn't see anything about it.
I wonder if this will be some kind of Stonewall/TELI/etc organized meeting that will basically just be the same kind of rhetoric we have heard a million times from the trans activist side. Presented without inviting any opposing views from feminists or gender-critical people, and then they can say "we discussed it."

Yes, thank you for being a legend Jonny
Please stay safe and keep well.

Ruth Hunt mentioned some meeting going on in Parliament next week on this issue. Does anyone know what she's referring to?

I wondered about this too.

It was presented as 'proof' that there was debate/discussion.

Just awful. Jonny will have been expecting this sort of thing of course. I'm pleased he's made it public and has involved the police.

Bloody hero you are, @JonnyBest

Threat made to jonny best. FFS.
They say people aren't being silenced.

Ah, the breakaway group. That would be the small group, including Bradley, Challenor etc, all interconnected, who have devised policy and rolled it out unchallenged because it has the imprimatur of Stonewall.

While the rest of Stonewall has got on with the real business of raising money.

I second whoever it was earlier in the thread that said to email [email protected] to express support for Quinn and for covering this; I shoehorned "and it's shameful that Women's Hour won't into mine (!)

Me too! And cross copied to WH.

Missed all of this! was merrily on radio 6 will listen tomorrow. Sounds great!

Women's hour where are you....

Ah, she basically implied that the plan was to let 'trans' form a breakaway group.

Julie Bindel has just said on Twitter that Ruth H wanted to take her for coffee to discuss 'the trans issue' before her interview for CEO of Stonewall. I'm desperate to hear the rest of the anecdote!

mobile.twitter.com/bindelj/status/1047899829773504513

I did a compulsory gender and feminism studies module at uni as part of my media degree. 20 years ago. We were asked whether we would ever use our sex to advance our career. The context being in any way including sleeping with someone. It was a particularly prestigious degree with the department being proud of its record on graduates being successful and going on to have good careers despite it being such a competitive field. Many of those on the course had well connected family members.

My group had 20 in it. Only one man. Would you like to guess how many said they would use their sex to get a competitive edge?

I learnt a lot that day. And not in a good way. It goes a lot against the #metoo narrative as well which makes me feel uncomfortable about telling the anecdote.

Yet it's what a bunch of 18 year old media wannabes were saying - perhaps very naively - and perhaps boastfully as a power thing, not realising what power they were giving up saying that. Certainly the sense was that if you wanted to be competitive as a woman, you had to be determined to do 'whatever it took'.

I do wonder what happened to them all and where they now work and how many did make it.

When I think of women in power now, I have moments when I consider what they compromised or gave up - which men didn't - to get to where they were. That's not to take away from their ability and talent. Indeed they more often than not are superior to their males peers. They had to do something more to prove themselves though. It wasn't good enough to be good, you had to be 'better'. That competitive edge...

It's a hard one to say, as it goes against what I'd like to believe. It pains me to acknowledge something which sounds like it's straight out the MRA handbook. And yet... I was there. I can not deny the reality of my experience. It put me off the idea of feminism as a concept for a very long time. "Hey Girl Power!"

It didn't sit right and well with me. I never fully reconciled with what they said and what I felt. Incredibly disappointed and as if I never would have a change to exceed just by being me. At the time I was having a bit of a crisis about being a woman full stop. I hated it. I starved myself. I was hugely depressed. All my interests were 'male' interests. And I didn't like the way I looked. Yet I had 'perfect' hourglass figure I deeply resented. I had a real lack of confidence.

I tried for a long time to do whatever to fit in with others. I over compensated at times. Threw my heart and soul into friendships and got burned when it didn't get appreciated.

I don't really know where I'm going with this post. It made more sense when I started it.

I guess my point is what route did Ruth take? Did she feel the same conflicts and pressures I did? Did she feel she had to over compensate in certain areas? Did she have to prove herself more than other? Did she have to 'sell out' or compromise herself? Maybe none of these. But I still wonder...

She is a woman, a lesbian at that, who works in a high profile media facing role in a male dominated arena.

I shouldn't be even pondering this, 20 years after that tutorial session. If we had equality with men it would even be a thought in my head to have. Its not about those 18 year old kids at uni. Nor is it even about Ruth's spinal rupture. It's about the reality of being female and not ever being able to escape your sexual availability and how it's currency in the workplace.

It's inescapable regardless of how good, capable and deserving you are. And that hasn't changed in 20 years.

You just have to switch on a reality TV show to know that. Any. Without exception.

I second whoeever it was earlier in the thread that said to email [email protected] to express support for Quinn and for covering this; I shoehorned "and it's shameful that Women's Hour won't into mine (!)

Ruth Hunt mentioned some meeting going on in Parliament next week on this issue. Does anyone know what she's referring to? Maybe we should turn up and demonstrate.

Forgot to mention she's 38 yo when in her own words she says "It really reminds me of the times when I've been told I'm not a lesbian you know; you're not a lesbian because you've not done anything lesbian yet." and this is why she resonates with the TRAs according to herself

Only a gay man, I should have saiid.

Just for the record: www.theguardian.com/world/video/2018/apr/20/stonewalls-ruth-hunt-tells-owen-jones-my-heart-breaks-for-trans-communities-video-interview

0.58 Ruth Hunt says (I had heard she had openly said this and she clearly says it in this video), I quote her - "It really reminds me of the times when I've been told I'm not a lesbian you know; you're not a lesbian because you've not done anything lesbian yet."

Why should a man be more credible. It fucking sucks, but it's true

In this particular situation (challenging Stonewall) only a man will do, because, a woman would have Hunt saying "But I'm a woman! But I'm a lesbian!" and the discussion would have got nowhere. Best is I think very much aware that him being heard instead of women is very much an issue but for this specific radio segment it really was necessary.

Occam's razor would suggest careerism. She has decided to thrown women in general and lesbians in particular under the bus to promote her own career. It's a gamble that I don't think is going to pay off.