Article in today’s Guardian about toilets and trans users.

Been reading this thread with interest. I certainly think more people should know about this issue. Is there a petition somewhere I can sign? I'm not happy with women/girls not having their own private safe space.

Been trying to think of a simple solution that could suit all but I don't think there is one.

In terms of public/work loos, the closest I can think of is to have a series of self-contained units only - with a loo and a sink in each, like disabled toilets are, which include sanibins and perhaps baby-changing facilities too - that way anyone can use them.

However, in a way women still lose out as there wouldn't be an open space to chat. Also the queues would be longer for everyone, as there wouldn't be a space for women to change clothes/brush teeth/apply makeup/manage children without using up a whole cubicle. Apparently we take too long as it is.

So then i guess a solution to that would be a room just for women to go and do those things. But that would be transphobic of course, because it would be just for women!

I'm also pretty sure men wouldn't be too happy with that as they are used to the speed of urinals. So you could then have another unit containing just urinals (and sinks!), for men to pee, if that's all they want to do. Dads also might want a room to manage kids too as it wouldn't be fair to only give this to women. Cubicles certainly won't be big enough if you have more than one kid and they need to change clothes etc. Plus men take up more space.

So let's see:
A series of self contained units that are gender neutral
Disabled units - also gender neutral
Separate urinals area for men only
Separate room for women only, to do womeny things in
Separate room for Dads and their kids, if needed

Simples!

Thanks ChattyLion.

cabbage
NAMALT = Not all men are like that
NAYMSPALT = Not all young male socialised people are like that*

I’m trying to stay on the right side of talk guidelines while not calling everyone who wants to self ID as a woman, a woman.

How do you make gym toilets (situated in changing rooms) unisex/gender neutral without allowing anyone into a room where women are naked/undressed?

As Margaret Atwood (nearly) said:

“Women are afraid that men will kill them. Men are afraid that women will not share their cake with them. ”

Interesting that the highly rated comments are all critical of mixed sex toilets. And if that's on the Guardian website, you can imagine what it would be like on the Mail's comments.

At times I feel very despairing at the massive resources that the anti women groups like Stonewall, Mermaids, Gires etc can access in order to push their personal fetishes / quirks. And then I go and read what the general public say when allowed to speak - and they understand the threats and are consistently appalled. I'm not sure whether it is enough to stop this juggernaut - but when the shit hits the fan, as it will - the list of names who it will be possible to sue will be easy to access and their culpability writ right across twitter.

I'm picturing the party that elicited the wounded tweet. Gusty laughter that only really happens when women are alone together. The author really has it in for women having their own stuff, eh?

I actually don't think men should get any say whatsoever about who goes into our toilets. Its not their business.

Completely agree with this!

He could always bring cake in himself. But no, its a "ciswoman's" job to make the cakes, I forgot, same as its our job to clean the lav and look after the elderly.
Knob.
I actually don't think men should get any say whatsoever about who goes into our toilets. Its not their business.

And NAMALT?

NAYMSPALT

What does this mean? Can't find it on Google.

I remember when the Guardian was a quality newspaper. Yes I'm that old.

A woman only cake thing would be...a party? People aren't legally required to invite anyone to those if they don't want to.

As a goth I've know lots of men who wear more makeup and flouncier clothes than the author of that article, and none of them tried to demand access to the women's loos.

Of course the queen is a big old terf - she's not dim! Given the hoo ha most places have arranging the perfect toilet for HRH when she goes visiting - can you just imagine her face seeing a "non binary" placard on the door?

Fwiw I'm not a big fan of cake. I'll pack my she-wee...

They announce their genitals through their surname. “Castricum”.

Now is that nomanitive determinism, or a chosen name, I wonder?

mobile.twitter.com/simonacastricum/status/1047014582622019584

Oh. Another one who announces on social media (and the whole world) the state of their genitals.

Yet we are the ones who are apparently obsessed with what is in someone's pants 🤔

I believe that there is a device called toilet seats that all humans use regardless of biological sex.

History of Urinals.

I'm astounded at this: The British Association of Urological Surgeons.

www.baus.org.uk/museum/165/a_brief_history_of_the_male_urinal

It's as if only men need urological surgery.

Anyway, when it came to women, of course the history is different.

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

It's as if women don't pee.

To take this thread to the next level, I believe there is a device called a 'she-pee', which would allow women to use a urinal.

(Though I don't know how comfortable they'd be using such a thing in public - if observed they could be left feeling quite she-peeish).

This is a horrendous and deeply rooted injustice. All these years at my womens only cake things I didn’t stop to think about the men or non-binary people who might also want to be part of the womens only cake things. Yes, a friend turned up with a cake and said ‘oh, I’ve made cake, do have some’ (and 9 times out of 10 this was a woman who had thoughtfully brought cake in), but we thoughtlessly and ‘c*s-normatively’ did not take the time to set up a transgender flag and sign letting other people with other genders know there was cake available. No wonder they felt excluded as we had the temerity to chat to each other and not get out our red carpet for anyone who wandered into the break room and explain that they too were welcome to cake, even if they didn’t know the secret lippy application signal we use to communicate in toilets.

Privilege well and truly checked.

@Knicknackpaddyflak - couldn't agree more.

I couldn't make it through the whole article but that person is very confused. On one hand gender is absolutely not about the clothes you wear and on the other hand non-binary people will be offended/ confused by a picture of a person wearing a dress?

I also love the way they have written this whole article about 'doing it right' and not actually given any kind of solution or different approach other than 'women accommodate me'. I love the way that trans people are willing to accept that men in men's toilets provide a threat to them (NAMALT of course) but that transwomen couldn't possible provide a threat to women?

Perhaps we just need to change the signs to a nice cock and balls and a vagina, so no one gets confused by what they are wearing.

What is a woman only cake thing? Has this person just walked in on a group of people eating cake and assumed it's bigotry, rather than people not including them! They might not have even not been involved, just not been in the kitchen when cake was presented! Says it all really. I wish real misogyny was just men eating cake without me!

And trouble is this is SO not about having a gender neutral space for toileting.

The whole point of this is getting in with those women where they're naked and vulnerable and really don't want you, so you get nice feelz about validation and power and control, and put those uppity bitches who won't mummy you properly and unconditionally at all times in their place.

I won't use gender neutral facilities. I did briefly in Brighton where they were the only option and I was desperate, I was very uncomfortable. I'd rather cede the space or use the gents where the decent and safe blokes will be hanging out, even if they will leave the toilet seat up.

FFS.
We need a third space:
1)Toilet, (unisex)
2)Urinal, (unisex)
3)Female biology business.

Then anyone who needs their gender validating can do so in a unisex space with everyone else except those who need a space to deal with their female genitals and/or need for privacy.

Misogyny= being forced to play a contact sport with a man who is bigger, stronger, faster and heavier than you and risking serious injury.

Transmisogyny= being upset that some women are jumping for joy at the prospect.