Why is the feminism board fair game?

Cognitive dissonance. That's the reason. Cognitive dissonance requires the sufferer to maintain their incompatible thoughts. The feminism board exposes them.

I came here as the mother of a new born whose phone kept crashing on net mums, but not with Mumsnet. I found FWR and stayed. I don't contribute much, but value greatly the huge amount I gain from being part of this group of women.

I think lurking is really useful tbh - I read far far more than I post. Reading clarified for me my viewpoint on, for example, trans issues because I hadn’t thought about it much or knew much about it. It’s taken a year or so and a lot of reading for me to have made up my mind. I wouldn’t have started a thread about it expecting others to work through it with me, that’s my job.

Whereas something else I feel I know more about because it’s personal to me eg being a sahm I go in more and challenge things I disagree with. I think for example, you can be a radical feminist and a sahm but some posters disagree with me when I’ve said that on threads about that subject. Being disagreed with or challenged or asked to back up an argument that is not based on your feelings or anecdotal isn’t a bad thing - it’s a good thing to help clarify your thinking

Dittany was brutal to me when I first started posting here. Or that's what it seemed to me. All she was doing, though, was holding up a mirror to show me that my feminism wasn't centering women. I am so glad that I was able to reflect, do lots more reading and even more thinking instead of getting the hump.

I don't know why anyone thinks feminism should be polite and comfortable. It should be the polar opposite.

The suffragettes are celebrated now that they’re safely dead but they were reviled at the time.

Expanding on what Floisme said, yes, the suffragettes got nothing but criticism - and the MRAs have not changed a bit in over 100 years. Same old, same old. They were 'ugly', they 'could not get a man', they 'treated men badly', they 'neglected children' (and their 'wifely duties'). All of that hatred was to scare the rest of the women from being like the suffragettes (implied: "be a good woman, not like those other bad women") and largely, many women were intimidated by that message. As Floisme said, the suffragettes were only hailed in the latter part of the 20th century, when all of them were safely in their graves.

Fast forward to the Second Wave. They got similar insults (amazing how 'ugly' always features) they were derided with 'ugly, hairy, manhating lesbians'. Again, all those insults were to scare off women generally from what was going on - the fight for other women's rights like loans and bank accounts in women's names, equal pay (not achieved, but not the fault of feminists) and a host of other rights.

Now we have a new batch of insults 'TERF, bigots, feminazis'. Again, to scare off other women from realising what is going on "be a good woman, not a bigoted TERF".

The pattern is very obvious when you know your Herstory. It is deliberate that Herstory is NOT taught in schools and hidden away.

Google 'anti-suffragette postcards'. Here are a few results.
diply.com/anti-suffrage-postcards/
www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/anti-suffragette-postcards-show-fighting-for-change-has-never-been-easy_n_3714795
www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/anti-suffragette-postcards/

Many of us are tired of the same old insults, put downs, and trolls. So yes, we can be a bit short with that nonsense.

Nevertheless, she persisted.

I was joking, I thought it was obvious from the context.

rag you were uncomplimentary towards other posters so I was pointing it out in a friendly and light way that you were doing yourself what you’re accusing everyone else of - stifling discussion by creating an unhelpful ‘tone’

If you think this is bad, go on reddit - I de regged after getting a load of grief on a thread about Pokemon. Pokemon ffs! (Which do have genders btw)

Tbh, MN as a whole has always had a selection of posters who are extremely blunt and do not play 'nice'. I've been coming here as a lurker for well over a decade, and there is a reason it was called a 'nest of vipers'.

And yes, sometimes that is hugely intimidating. I personally try to give even the obvious GF the benefit of the doubt if I can, but that's because I'm mostly a bit of a softy and I have been on threads where I have honestly wasted hours over a few days trying to explain to someone who presented as an 'interested newcomer', who then turned as quick as you like and was actually a pretty nasty AWA all along. Stuff like that can make you very wary to expend time and energy over and over, and some of the posters here in FWR have been doing this for years now, so I'm afraid I offer no judgement on them for being prickly.

I can only reiterate what I try to do when this critique arises, and that's to say keep posting if you're genuine. Keeping reading and learning, don't be a dick. There are fearsome women here, and if you care about women they will have your back, even if they aren't Disney Princess pleasant.

The 'what about the men' thing can actually be a 'what about the women' thing in disguise. I once posted to say that as a SAHD my partner felt intimated by all the toddler groups, marketing at SAHMs etc and my point was that the more men feel intimated to be the SAHP the more that role falls to women. But lots of posters just saw that as a 'what about the men' post.

Didn't someone famous once say 'if you can't have equality in the home you can't have it in the workplace'? I think that's where some of these 'what about the men' posts are saying, and some posters don't seem to understand that.

I’m going to respectively disagree on MN being more harsh. Facebook is disgusting for women in comparison and I do not dare venture to reddit. The ‘fuck being nice’ attitude you’re focusing on, is what I’ve seen directed at the issue, rather than a MN member. As in, why do we have to be nice talking about it?

I also do think, some people are not destined to spend a lot of time online. It’s much more brutal than real life overall and if you prefer to see peoples faces ( it’s so hard to get tone online anyway ) and have a ‘nicer’ conversation. I went off all other social media fairly recently for this reason myself. I quite like that women here are rebelling against the ‘women have to be nice’ when advocating for themselves and their own rights.

I agree with the opening eyes thing carrots. In fact I'd say I have become politicised. I think the whole self ID thing is an absolute travesty. Its boards like this that allow people to become aware of and support these issues, and gain traction.

Many pre-peak posters are perhaps afraid of the whole 'you're a bigot' thing, no one wants to be seen as a bigot and that's exactly what the trans lobby have used to their unfair advantage.

I’d also say if you don’t read these boards you’ve got a very good chance of never coming across issues that directly affect your life until it’s too late.

Little, I've experienced that before on mn and also a tiny bit on feminism (the worst was actually in relationships).

However I must say I persevered and also found many really good posters - Datun in particular was very patient with me in the early days.

I personally aim to help explain things to people though I did get exasperated with one poster once who just kept saying 'what about the men.'

I have to say in the time I’ve been on FWR I’ve found it supportive and informative. Quite the opposite of a massive proportion of stuff on AIBU for eg, where is can be brutal and just down right nasty.
Maybe people don’t want to engage I’d say just don’t click then. I have to say I enjoy the FWR boards becaus ethey are informative, and they have really opened my eyes.

If you don't like feminism then just don't go on that discussion page. No reason to stop others from doing so.
There are two very important reasons why there has been a lot of discussion recently about "transgender" issues. One is the current online consultation held by the UK government about introducing gender self-identification. This has been deplorably under-reported in the mainstream media and people need to know about it so that they can take part in the democratic process.
Secondly, we are mothers, and the transgender ideology being pushed in UK schools is a danger to all our children. They are being taught lies, which conflict with science, biology, factual reality and commonsense. Children as young as five are being taught that they can choose their sex, which is a cruel deception. You can't. So-called transsexuals are people who have mutilated their bodies and had surgery to imitate the appearance of the opposite sex but they are eunuchs. They have to take high doses of hormones for the rest of their life, and the surgeries they have are horrific and risky. Many embark on a lifetime of cosmetic surgery to bolster their delusion. (They demand the NHS should pay for it too).
Mothers should all be deeply concerned that their children are being taught this toxic rubbish and set on a path to lifelong self-harm.
Mad people have taken over our schools and media.

The whole of 2018 has been one long trans-fest and it just gets worse.
I am very glad that Mumsnet is providing a place for the majority of normal women (who are NOT man-haters) to discuss these important issues. The pictures below are horrible but people need to see them to understand what all this glib talk about "gender" and "trans" really means. It's no picnic.
Many older people deeply regret it.
Otherwise we will all be pushed around and told what to do, say and think by woman-haters such as Dr Adrian Harrop. He is a horrifying bully.
He has a business website here where people are invited to give feedback on his performance as a doctor, or his suitability for that role.
east-boldon.cylex-uk.co.uk/company/dr-adrian-harrop-limited-24318678.html

NB GoldenWonderwall .Feminists don't believe in assigning gender at birth. Quite the opposite.

I'm not singling it out pennydrew. AIBU can be harsh too and I rarely post in there. But two wrongs don't make a right, and I've not seen the 'fuck being nice' sentiment on other boards.
Mumsnet as a whole can be quite harsh as a forum, compared to other forums I've used eg reddit, MSE.
I rarely OP now, as more often than not when I submit an OP I end up regretting it.

LittleMissedTheSunshine Re your last comment, again, I’ve been commenting a week and had that happen on two other boards. Really unpleasant comments directed at me while discussing my daughters problems. So I’m not sure if you are active elsewhere, but I think singling out this space as more aggressive than any other on MN is just not based on what’s actually happening.

LittleMissedTheSunshine All I can say is I’ve been lurking a long time before engaging, and am new, and I haven’t seen the trend on the feminist boards that you speak of. However, the AIBU is frightening and full of pseudo science and finger pointing at other parents, one vegetarian thread is downright nasty- unlike anything I’ve seen here where objections or debates tend to be based in facts.

For example I once posted about something i'd observed (kids playing, boys doing the traditionally girl things) and one of the posters replied with 'you really don't get it do you'. No attempt to explain what it was I didn't get. No putting forward a different point of view. I'm still not entirely sure what it was that I supposedly 'didn't get'.

Now most posters are not like that but the few that are spoil it for FWR as I think that kind of response is unnecessary and if I was a more easily intimidated person that would probably have been my last post.

christ

check the tone on AIBU

it's vicious

I'm not saying anyone needs to change or be different, either. But it was my explanation of why I think the board attracts more hate than others, as some people seemed to genuinely be wondering why that is. Lots of people are put off by the tone. It doesn't make it wrong. It may explain why there is less engagement by some people who otherwise find it interesting and read a lot.

yes, I think what's so puzzling is that the fact of our existence seems to upset people

I think the preppers are bonkers (and a little worrying)

but I don't think mumsnet should evict them

I don't need to hide the board - i just don't click on the threads

If I went on their threads and said I think they're verging on swivel eyed I wouldn't be surprised or offended when I got my arse handed to me

people seem to do the diametric opposite of the above when it comes to FWR and then get extremely cross when something happens to upset them

baffling

pennydrew there's a fine line between being 'not overly concerned you will offend' and downright rude, and I've seen that on these boards.

Yes, we don't want to be all nicey-nicey and complaint but let's not let this be an excuse for ripping other posters to shreds.

It's a fine line to tread, but I for one want to stay on the right side of it. I'll say what I want to, and I don't give a shit if other posters don't think i'm 'nice' but I try not to be excessively rude or harsh. There's always an assertive way to say something, rather than an aggressive way.

I'm just concerned that this 'fuck nice' thing is being taken too far. People can disagree respectfully, in fact I'd say that's the aim of the game (to be able to disagree without it turning nasty) with online boards of this nature.

I think if you're raised in a patriarchal society you'll have some very patriarchal views, even if you're a woman. It's hard sometimes when your world view is challenged - which is what a lot of people will find happens when they come on here.

I agree there are lots of important issues beyond self-id that need to be discussed, and I do think that still happens here. This issue may not affect all of us yet but it has the potential to be absolutely devastating for women's rights. This is pretty much the only place women can discuss it openly.

I also remember a post from a couple of months ago showing how traffic to this board in particular had exploded, so we may not be popular with some but there are still huge amounts of people who realise the importance of this board.